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'roo 6d Sg38A Die Iia - Seeking Comprehensive Description

 
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Posted 05/13/2022   5:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Jay Smith to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
In the post "'roo 6d Sg38A Die Iia" (last active in 2017)
http://goscf.com/t/53185
there is plenty of discussion about the features of the Die IIA for the 6d, but there is no single summary in which everybody agrees -- and some of the information offered seems to either conflict or just does not mention all the features that other people may have mentioned.

I am hoping an expert in this subject can supply a single, consolidated description of how to confirm that one does (or does not) have a Die IIA.... and answer these questions:

1) Until I read the original thread, I was not aware that Die IIA may (?) be a single-position replacement cliche. Is that correct? And only position 60 if that is correct? (And thus may show the sheet margin edge watermark depending upon watermark vs printing positioning of that particular example?) [Unfortunately, the American Scott Catalogue does not mention that single-cliche aspect for what Scott calls "Die III" -- if this is the case for any and all stamps with Die IIA, I can propose to the Scott editors clarifying information if somebody wishes to supply more information on the overall use of Die IIA.]

2) Is the break in the left inner frame on the left ALWAYS a very clear and distinct break? Or can it be a more vague thinness that looks like a break if you magnify it enough.

3) Is the left outer frame line ALWAYS broken (at the same location as the break in the inner frame line) on Die IIA? Some previous posters seemed to suggest that a break in the outer frame line does not always show if heavily inked? (Or may this have been a progressive-damage situation where it changed states?)

4) I have seen references by only some previous posters that the upper right OUTER frame line corner is rounded on Die IIA. Is that true? If so, is that ALWAYS the case?

5) I have seen references by only some previous posters that the upper right INNER frame line corner is "open" on Die IIA. Is that true? If so, is that ALWAYS the case?

6) I have seen suggestions by only some previous posters that on Die IIB the break in the top frame line is sometimes ink-filled (again, speaking of Die IIB). If that is possible for Die IIB, then how does one differentiate between an "ink-filled" Die IIB and a Die IIA?

7) A previous poster mentioned something about a break or feature near Queensland. To what is that in reference?

8) Are there other consistent (or even occasional) features of Die IIA?

9) Is the set of features for Die IIA on the 6d the same as the couple other denominations that seem (?) to use Die IIA?

[If I can get a more complete description of the reliable features (not dependent upon inking), I will be happy to propose a more detailed description to the Scott Catalogue editors. While I know that Australians could care less about Scott, it would help the Americans correctly identify their stamps -- and perhaps reduce the number of incorrectly identified items offered on sites like eBay, or prevent some " eBay bunnies" from getting taken by incorrect items.]

The damaged stamp pictured below was shown to me by somebody who thought it was a Die IIA (and they had the watermark wrong). I suspect that it is NOT Die IIA. I can see a "faintness" that is almost a break in the inner frame line -- in what seems to be the correct position -- that led that person to that conclusion. However, I do not see any of the other features that some (but not all) people have mentioned in the original thread. This stamp has the 1915-1924 watermark (the more "common" with OS perfin).

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Posted 05/14/2022   09:37 am  Show Profile Check fairdinkumstamps's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add fairdinkumstamps to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Jay, the 'go-to' reference is the ACSC Kangaroos catalogue.

The requirements for a Die IIA are that it
(i) does not have the Die I left inner frame break immediately above the words of value i.e. it is at least a Die II, then
(ii) has a left inner frame break 9mm below the top left corner (opposite Broome)

The stamp you have shown has the inner frame thinned near, but not at, the right location - it should be one shading line further down. It should also be a clear break.

Die IIB stamps have Die IIA characteristics plus the break in the upper frame over ST (which may be over-inked) and a break in the junction of the inner frame lines at the top right corner. On the 6d there is also usually a rounded top right corner on the Die IIB stamps. An over-inked break above ST would not be confused with a Die IIA stamp if the other Die IIB characteristics are present.

The 6d Die IIA substituted cliche is located in the lower right corner of the sheet (position 60), so the presence of marginal corner watermarks is a helpful indicator of at least the correct position. The lines may not be present if the crown over A watermark is located particularly low and right (from the front).

Buyers of 6d Die IIB substituted cliche stamps usually look for at least a partial break (the bigger the better) in the outer frame in addition to, and aligned with, the inner frame break. This is variable but at least the presence of it reduces the possibility that the inner frame break is just a case of under-inking.

Although not always present, there is an ink blob on the coast of WA above Broome that provides additional evidence when found in the company of the other indicators.



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https://www.fairdinkumstamps.com Fair Dinkum Stamps - Specialising in stamps from early Australia and the colonies, Australian philatelic literature, catalogues, stockbooks and accessories.
Edited by fairdinkumstamps - 05/14/2022 09:55 am
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Posted 05/15/2022   10:47 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Partime to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here is a little more information from ACSC. The Die distinctions are pretty easy, once you know the tricks:


Die 1 has the break "A" as shown. Die II has No Breaks. Die IIA has the inner frame break B in the exact position shown. Die IIB no longer has the break at B. It now has a break at C, this is sometimes inked over. It also has an inner frame break at the corner at D that is usually easy to see. The outside corner at D is also "rounded".

The special Die IIA substitution that I would like to find is shown in two different ACSC publications as shown below. Notice that the nomenclature has changed over the years:



The key to these is that they OUTER frame also has a break (preferably complete, but sometimes partial.)
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Posted 05/15/2022   2:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Jay Smith to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you "fairdinkumstamps" and "partime" for all the great information / clarifications.''

I must get a copy of the ACSC Kangaroos Catalogue. I momentarily thought that I might "make do" with a 2017 edition, but the information (including that there are prices for both solo uses and other uses on covers) at the link you folks provided, has convinced me that I must have the 2021. ??? Does anybody know of a source in the U.S. that stocks the book to make things a bit easier? I don't mind if the price is a few dollars more -- it is about ease of purchase and reducing the chance of damage in shipment.

I have only a few remaining Die IIA questions:

1) In the regular stamps listings, the Scott Catalogue only lists what Scott calls Die III -- which is Australian Die IIA -- on the 1p (first watermark, but in several colors of red) and the 6p ultramarine (first, second, and third watermarks).

a) ... Does the Die IIA exist on any other denominations and watermarks than those?

b) Are the points of identification and circumstances of production of Die IIA (i.e. position 60 for on the 6p) the same for the 1p as for the 6p? If not, what are the details for the 1p?

2) In a very confusing situation, Scott also lists a (Scott) Die III -- Australian Die IIA -- (as Scott OB 50a) with "OS" perfin" on the 9b lilac (watermark single, narrow crown, narrow A) ... but Scott has NO such listing for a stamp without the "OS" perfin!!

a) Is this just a typographical error in Scott? If it is, I can get it fixed. What dies do exist for the 9p with that watermark?

b) If it is not an error in Scott that Die IIA exists with "OS" perfin (i.e. it DOES exist), then does Die IIA exist on a UN-perfined stamp with that (or any) watermark? If it does so exist, please advise which dies do exist on the 9b lilac (watermark single, narrow crown, narrow A) so I can properly pass all the information on to Scott.

c) IF the 9b lilac (watermark single, narrow crown, narrow A) does exist with Die IIA, are the points of identification and circumstances of production of Die IIA (i.e. position 60 for the 6p) the same for the 9p as for the 6p? If not, what are the details for the 9p?

.... Yes, I know, I know... Scott is not well regarded in some circles for their listings of Australian stamps. However, if I can get improvements made here and there, surely it will benefit more collectors.

Thanks!
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Edited by Jay Smith - 05/15/2022 3:07 pm
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Posted 05/15/2022   4:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Partime to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
1) In the regular stamps listings, the Scott Catalogue only lists what Scott calls Die III -- which is Australian Die IIA -- on the 1p (first watermark, but in several colors of red) and the 6p ultramarine (first, second, and third watermarks).

a) ... Does the Die IIA exist on any other denominations and watermarks than those?


Per ACSC, the Die IIA exists on

- 1d Red, first watermark (ACSC 4)
- 2d Grey, third watermark (ACSC 8)
- 6d Blue, first, second and third watermark (ACSC 17, 18 and 19)

Concerning the 9p, ACSC lists several different varieties of a Die II substitution in the Die IIB version, but only collectible as a pair. There is no Die IIA listed for the 9d Kangaroo.
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Posted 05/15/2022   5:14 pm  Show Profile Check fairdinkumstamps's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add fairdinkumstamps to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Die IIB no longer has the break at B.


Partime, the die IIA inner frame break is present for die IIB.
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https://www.fairdinkumstamps.com Fair Dinkum Stamps - Specialising in stamps from early Australia and the colonies, Australian philatelic literature, catalogues, stockbooks and accessories.
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Posted 05/15/2022   5:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Partime to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Partime, the die IIA inner frame break is present for die IIB.


Thank you for finding that mistake.
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Posted 05/16/2022   03:21 am  Show Profile Check fairdinkumstamps's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add fairdinkumstamps to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't currently have a 6d Die IIA but for those who would like to see a Die IIB, there is one here:
6d Kangaroo Die IIB
Note that if you hover over the stamp, you will be able to see the Die IIA break in the left frame opposite Broome, the break in the top right corner of the inner frame and the characteristic rounded top right corner. The outer frame break above ST is inked over in this example.
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https://www.fairdinkumstamps.com Fair Dinkum Stamps - Specialising in stamps from early Australia and the colonies, Australian philatelic literature, catalogues, stockbooks and accessories.
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Australia
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Posted 05/16/2022   05:15 am  Show Profile Check fairdinkumstamps's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add fairdinkumstamps to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Jay Smith,
Q1a:
Quote:
Does the Die IIA exist on any other denominations and watermarks than those?

Die IIA exists on the 1d, 2d (single substituted unit) and 6d (single substituted unit) (Source: BW ACSC Kangaroos)

Q1b:
Quote:
Are the points of identification and circumstances of production of Die IIA (i.e. position 60 for on the 6p) the same for the 1p as for the 6p? If not, what are the details for the 1p?

The 1d on plates G,H and K are all Die IIA except substituted cliches. (Source: BW ACSC Kangaroos)

Q2: The 9d stamps are Die II (1st, 2nd and 3rd watermark) or Die IIB (3rd, SMC and CofA watermark). There are Die II substitutions among the Die IIB plates.

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https://www.fairdinkumstamps.com Fair Dinkum Stamps - Specialising in stamps from early Australia and the colonies, Australian philatelic literature, catalogues, stockbooks and accessories.
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Posted 05/16/2022   09:05 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add langtounlad to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
fairdinkumstamps

Plate 3 of the 2d Kangaroo and Map is a Die 2A plate. Currently touring Scotland so access to my records is limited. When I get better access I might add more comment to this thread.

Regards
Frank
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Posted 05/16/2022   09:21 am  Show Profile Check fairdinkumstamps's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add fairdinkumstamps to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you very much Frank - yes, I should have added Plate 3 along with the substituted unit on Plate 1 for the 2d stamps. (In BW ACSC Kangaroos but omitted in my post).
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https://www.fairdinkumstamps.com Fair Dinkum Stamps - Specialising in stamps from early Australia and the colonies, Australian philatelic literature, catalogues, stockbooks and accessories.
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