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New York City Rescinds Regulations On [philatelic] Auction Firms

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Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 05/17/2022   01:42 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Oh boy !!!!



Quote:
...New York City Council has lifted long-standing rules on how auction firms conduct their business....

Other restrictions being abolished relate to disclosures that auction firms are required to make in the name of transparency and fairness, such as the existence of reserve bids over the low estimate and whether an auctioneer or third party has a financial stake in an item being sold.

Rules about practices such as chandelier bidding, a form of shill bidding in which an auctioneer pretends to take bids in order to reach a hidden reserve, will also be relaxed....



See: https://www.linns.com/news/auctions...uction-firms




This is great news!!!



What could go wrong?

Let the fleecing begin...


Edit: To add my emphasis and title word [insertion].
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Edited by Parcelpostguy - 05/17/2022 01:50 am

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Posted 05/17/2022   03:35 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mootermutt987 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Wow!!!!!

So they are relaxing regulations to ALLOW (ENCOURAGE???????) unethical behavior? So much for protecting the consumer.
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Posted 05/17/2022   04:44 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
How upmarket! I've never heard "chandelier bidding" but I knew it as "bidding against the water cooler ". And the only place where I saw it being obviously done was a charity auction by an (unlicensed) auctioneer (I checked). "Oh, but it was for charity." Yeah, sure.

mootermutt, how does one detect shill bidding and other shenanigans, much less prove it? That's pretty much impossible to prove in court and we'll need an example where a bidder successfully sued any auction house anywhere for fraud on that basis. So, it's been (another) useless package of laws, probably seen as driving sales (and their associated sales taxes) out of NYC. Scott Trepel of Siegel's said in the article: "There was absolutely no compliance enforcement and the bonding process was pointless".

Bidders often come in being suspicious, some up to the point of paranoia and are always heard grumbling about getting run up on lots. The latter is baloney from someone who had the responsibility of running the bid book in many auctions. But they go absolutely ballistic if the auctioneer misses their halfhearted-looking bid using a limp wrist held at desk-level. Why not just do your homework and (essentially) stick to a bid you've pre-set?
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Posted 05/17/2022   05:19 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mootermutt987 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
mootermutt, how does one detect shill bidding and other shenanigans, much less prove it?


One simple way is to have an insider testify. Not that it happens often. I came up with that one in 5 seconds. I am sure there are other ways that could take5 or 10 minutes of thinking it through. But without the laws as they are now, the auction houses can behave as they want with impunity. Just because a law is tough to prove or prosecute doesn't mean we should simply scrap it. That is completely ludicrous. Let's at least have laws that makes wrong behavior wrong. At least, in theory, it is prosecutable. Other than admitting that the bad guys have won, why get rid of a law that tells us where the line of morality is?
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Posted 05/17/2022   07:04 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Scott Trepel, the president of Robert A. Siegel Auction Galleries, also in Manhattan, was more scathing: "There was absolutely no compliance enforcement and the bonding process was pointless. Sotheby's chairman went to prison because of criminal conduct," Trepel said, referring to Alfred Taubman's 2002 conviction for price-fixing. "They never lost their license. What does that tell you?"

From the story.......
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Posted 05/17/2022   07:48 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Sounds as if somebody made a sizable campaign donation…..
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Posted 05/17/2022   10:06 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add floortrader to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
There are all kinds of games played at stamp auction houses .Somebody needs to write a book ,but it needs input from a insider. The sad part is I learned some of these games the hard way by being the sucker in the game .

This whole business of getting better prices for auction lots has changed greatly with all the internet /online buyers so there has been new methods developed by the firms .
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Posted 05/17/2022   10:17 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add classic_paper to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
why get rid of a law that tells us where the line of morality is?

Laws and morality don't necessarily coincide, nor should one rely on the former to indicate the latter.
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Posted 05/17/2022   10:28 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This definitely seems like a strange action from NYC.

In general, I am not in favor of over-regulating most businesses. In this case, however, if there are regulations in place that people feel are functionally ineffective, but, in fact, might provide a moral barrier that would preclude some from going too far, then it seems pointless to remove them, and possibly beneficial to keep them.
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Posted 05/17/2022   1:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
There are all kinds of games played at stamp auction houses .Somebody needs to write a book ,but it needs input from a insider. The sad part is I learned some of these games the hard way by being the sucker in the game .

This whole business of getting better prices for auction lots has changed greatly with all the internet /online buyers so there has been new methods developed by the firms .


Don't forget the scandal in which the syndicate manipulated stamp auctions:

https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/200...amp-auctions
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Posted 05/17/2022   3:10 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add BobInRye to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The NYC auction house regulations have been a joke for years. The idea may [emphasis on may] be good, but when there is no supervision / control, having them only gives a false sense of security to the naive. Buyer beware is and always has been the rule.
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Posted 05/17/2022   5:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Laws and morality don't necessarily coincide, nor should one rely on the former to indicate the latter.


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Posted 05/17/2022   6:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add uboatnut to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

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Posted 05/18/2022   01:03 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
When I bid in person, I stand in the very back of the room flat against the wall. This allows me to see everything and read the room. Helps me understand which empty chair, fire extinguish or post is likely bidding against me as they seem to be the stiffest competitors on the floor.
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Posted 05/18/2022   06:29 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add angore to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I like the term "chandelier bidding" . For some the process can be an emotional event and the auction firms want to exploit it.

To me, it is just a fixed price sale made to look like an auction.

The problem is not everyone can agree on a common set of morals. I was in the Far East on business and discussing some behavior and they just said the people under discussion were "businessmen" meaning business first, most everything else second.
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Al
Edited by angore - 05/18/2022 06:29 am
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Posted 05/18/2022   08:14 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The city was too busy ensuring small businesses were shut down the past two years to spend time on silly things like bad auction behavior. Rigging a bid did not come close to going maskless in that new world. And if you are going to let felons back out on the street immediately and repeatedly why tackle rich people being fleeced. I mean come on now.
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