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Questionable Sellers Offering Photocopy Essay-Fantasy Items

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Posted 05/26/2022   4:37 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bookbndrbob to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."

Edmund Burke (1770)
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Posted 05/26/2022   5:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
essayk, it is great you are an exhibitor but unlike exhibiting, there is no penalty for using many words on a blog and in fact too few words is a way to earn a "penalty" on a blog.

Now to look at your OP I find one solid and one marginal action item. With the marginal item it is you offering the action and as an implied afterthought wondering out-loud if anyone here has seen the sellers' material found it wanting and had made a complaint. Not a stellar way to solicit feedback.


Quote:
Does anyone have experience with these two sellers?


An example of a direct solicitation for information.


Quote:
I will attempt to get examples of their work and report them to eBay unless others have unsuccessfully attempted that already.





To continue, classic_paper wrote,
Quote:
Well, either post the links or get in touch with eBay. What do you want from us?


I find his response directed to your marginal action item not to your clear question about experience with either seller. Furthermore, his earlier explanation of the baseline one needs to overcome when making a valid complaint sets the height of the wall the complainant must clear and behind which all sellers have as a means for protecting their actions, be they good or evil.


Quote:
1) sellers don't have to have anything certified.
2) how are the items labeled? Is the listing really deceptive, or just vague? can you just put in the links?
3) report all you want, but if you're not law enforcement or an IP owner, why should eBay take your word over the seller's?


Then follows conversation which I will describe as testy at best (and understandably so from where I sit ) but does nothing to further the thread. You, OP, took seven more posts to actually state the action you wanted SCF members to take,
Quote:
If everyone on this thread reported the problem, eBay would have plenty of reason to take notice.


That action statement belonged in your first post to start this thread. But again, each person filing a complaint needs to overcome the listed minimum threshold, on their own. If not on their own with their own individual understanding, but merely parroting your comments, then that is attempted rule by mob, not clarification with facts. Of course we all see the effectiveness of mob rule on the internet as we watch cancellations taking place all around us.

Now and I say this with a smile, you may be god's gift to essay philately (thank you), with the ability to walk on water even when not frozen, but that is your opinion of yourself. Why should eBay know that and why or how can they know that from one complainer among the thousands (tens of thousands?). Frankly it is not their job. Having access to or on staff subject matter experts is about the best one can hope for in such cases. The business goal of eBay is to get listing sellers and have buyers buy from the sellers. If that does not occur, the business model collapses. I suggest eBay only becomes interested in bad sellers when the buyers start to complain and eBay starts to refund money to buyers. That is also where the "this is fake, no it is not" debate is settled by eBay. Sellers have nothing on buyers when it comes to being underhanded, a point to remember, which eBay must navigate.

Now you did get William T. Crowe, philatelic expert of some note, to comment on your thread. You may not have liked what he said, along the lines of other bad sellers exist, as that was not helpful for your goal. It also proves than the SCF is not populated by ignorant stamp collecting sheep; well except for me perhaps, baa.

All that said, the internet is the wild, wild west of commerce where caveat emptor is the best rule to follow, while being armed with the most knowledge one can to make a decision. Your posting of fakes helps spread the knowledge and to that I say thank you. But I must add this reminder, Section 230, which protects The SCF from your posts, also protects eBay from fraudulent or underhanded sellers as well as the fraudulent and underhanded buyers.

While it amazes me to see what is at times passed off on eBay, it is far more amazing that I can press a few buttons, send money into the middle of a active war zone and some weeks later receive in my PO Box, stamps that fit into one of the topics I collect.

Edited to correct two minor "fingeros."

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Edited by Parcelpostguy - 05/26/2022 5:34 pm
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Posted 05/26/2022   5:28 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Don't make me stop this car Mildred.
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Posted 05/26/2022   5:44 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I see essayk's original post as being both a call to action AND a significant public service.

Folks seem to not be placing value in the naming of the seller's in the first post; we often get threads started which do not name the seller. By naming the sellers in the very first post, essayk ensured that the search engines pick them up (typically within a 24 hours). If anyone cares to check, go search on one of the sellers names now in Google and see how it comes right up. So essayk's first post was quite a bit more than just a call to action, it facilitated an incredibly powerful way to become a better-informed buyer.

Stopping the flow of bad listings is not every going to stop them; for every one we shut down there are plenty more to take their place. Educating hobbyists is one of the best weapons in the war against poor/deceptive listings. For me, a call for action with eBay is always going to get (at bets) mixed results. But posting the names of the seller, a description of the listings issues serves a much greater purpose; education. As such, I find essays original post to contain great value.
Don
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Posted 05/28/2022   5:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Last evening was meeting night for one of my stamp clubs. A relatively new member to the club brought up the subject of plate proofs and essays. The reason was why are plate proof so cheap compared to issued stamps. His purchase of a 122 completed his 1869 set and last meeting he announce completing his Columbians through the $5. A discussion ensued about such pricing and the difference between essays, plate proofs and die proofs.

After the meeting he brought his phone to me to show me some essay proofs he bough for real cheap. I said they were fake when I saw them. He said that he noticed such comments in the sellers feedback. I suggested he return them while he can. His answer was he would keep them because they were inexpensive (relatively) and he like how they looked. I asked about the seller's ID and it was romad. I mentioned there was the other person selling fakes too out of Canada and this discussion here.

So two non-returned sales made....
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Posted 05/28/2022   5:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bookbndrbob to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Over the past few years, I have noticed more and more people bidding crazy prices for what appear to be color photocopies of stamps on eBay.
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Posted 05/29/2022   03:05 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add archerg to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Despite the collective protests of philately, there is a segment of the collecting public that is unconcerned with authenticity. The "decorative" value of the item is the appeal. They like that the item was affordable, tells a story and looks nice on their album / scrapbook page. They have bought labels since the days of S. Allan Taylor and George Hussey, they bought Spiro and Fournier forgeries in the day too.
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Posted 05/29/2022   08:15 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That also explains the existence of those plated "gold" coins that people buy as an " investment" as well as of those menacing tattoos that soccer moms now sport.
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Posted 05/29/2022   10:05 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cjpalermo1964 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
And perhaps conversely, NFTs.
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Posted 05/29/2022   10:17 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

From the internet May 2021

" eBay Seller 'romad-42' would have us believe that the Penang KGVI stamps, issued in 1949 (SG3-22) were somehow issued during the Japanese Occupation and handstamped with the Okugawa seal which was used temporarily in 1942...

These stamps are pure forgeries as they could not exist. Reporting time!"

Seems reporting does not do a great deal.


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Posted 05/30/2022   07:42 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
archerg wrote:

Quote:
They have bought labels since the days of S. Allan Taylor and George Hussey, they bought Spiro and Fournier forgeries in the day too.


While that is true, let us hasten to add that those who admired and sought out such material were almost entirely fringe collectors. From the get-go, mainstream collectors called such things "Album Weeds" and in the professional circles would not admit such material into exhibitable collections or investment portfolios. The proliferation of such material necessitated the creation of more and more groups for the expertization of material (with a corresponding increase in fake certificates to support fake stamp material, I might add). Unfortunately, a great many collections down through the years have been compromised by the intermingling of fakes as "spacefillers" alongside authentic postal emissions of all sorts. In the long run it has not been helpful to the hobby to pronounce a blessing upon forgeries. But, as you point out they are here to stay. Yet even eBay has adopted the principle that they must be clearly identified as reproductions if they are to be legitimately sold on that venue. (BTW a few years ago, I was contacted by eBay to serve as a volunteer watchdog in a program they were starting up. There are channels for dealing with these things.)

@parcelpostguy - despite your first post on this thread I am encouraged by your second post. I'd like to pick up on that if I may. You mentioned that the person who had bought from romad showed you some pics of them on his phone. If there is any chance of it, and if you are so inclined, let me suggest that it would be greatly helpful if you would have a chance to see the actual material he bought and then report it here.
I have not yet been successful in purchasing any reference examples of what that seller is offering. I would like to examine the paper on both sides, but more importantly I would like to have a report about the printing. Specifically, I suspect that nothing is being done to make up for the textural difference between the intaglio printing of the original designs and the flatness of color photocopies. Moreover, I want to see how they are eliminating the join lines in their images which are composited from a single image. None of the blocks being sold ever existed as a block in intaglio.

Until we can put together an ironclad case, eBay will not act. The burden is on us. But if we persist in putting together an ironclad case, it can be walked up the channels. I've been there before. While that is no guarantee, management does want them to work by the policies they publicly state.
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Posted 05/30/2022   1:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Until we can put together an ironclad case, eBay will not act.


And placing the word, "fantasy" in the description sinks any so-called ironclad case. But again Section 230 protects providers such as eBay. Should 230 get changed, you may see fake material disappear from eBay well maybe more accurately, you may see eBay disappear and thus have no need to worry about fraudulent material listed.

I will remind you that even Scott now has a large listing of fraudulent stamps in their US Specialized. Faking is nothing new nor has it yet stopped during the march of centuries.

I am fully in agreement with your position on fakes not being labeled, but when labeled, they should not be blocked from sale by eBay. Of course, the buyer, when time to resell, may not bother with the fantasy definition being included nor could heirs even be aware. Not much different from accidentally losing a certificate one finds inconvenient.

Lastly, I feel I must buy such items in my area in order to stay on top of my understanding of good and bad material from an expertising point of view. Likewise I own hundreds (not an exaggeration) of the fraudulent "Naco Express" covers usually involving PP and PPD stamps all destined for the APS reference collection some day. Well discussed in an article about their creation, but that article was published by the APS back in the early 1970s. A quick check of my calendar shows it is now a half century later and likely not common knowledge among collectors. Sellers nor eBay care on whit when I mention that it is a faked item when such appear.


No, I am not going to ask to get my hands on the items he purchased. We don't know each other well enough currently. I suggest you bid high enough to win an items and after receiving and reviewing, them ask for a refund. However, if you go to eBay and find the feed back on romad, then click on the negative and read through them you will see the nature of the paper mentioned and that it seems the same paper is used no matter the issue. And while you are reading the negative feedback understand this one may be putting folks off:

"Fake stamps. Now threatening home invasion and bodily harm. Don't let this guy have your address.
STAMPS CANADA QUEEN ESSAYS PROOF VERY RARE CV.$ 2.000 + (#185232907446)"

Edited to add: I reviewed the 90 day history of the seller to find sales approximately in excess of $20,000.00 US. The highest priced 240 items are over $12,000. That is a real money stream which, for some, would cause some push back if you are trying to cut it off.
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Edited by Parcelpostguy - 05/30/2022 2:04 pm
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Posted 05/30/2022   6:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Parcelpostguy you took a wrong turn somewhere, and I think you have not very carefully read what I have written.

First, your citing section 230 is irrelevant to the discussion in this thread, inasmuch as I am not holding the venue ( eBay) liable for any damages. eBay has a policy governing the selling of stamp reproductions (https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/...icy?id=5043) and it is clear that reproductions may be sold, but must be clearly labeled as such in the title and descriptions of the items. If you look carefully at the listings the named sellers are putting up, such as those to which attention has been directed in this thread, you will see that they do not specify fantasy, reproduction, or any of the terms the eBay policy requires.

Secondly, I am not calling for the abolition of the sale of reproductions. I am calling out to collectors to stand up for the rules eBay has in place and report sellers who openly violate the stated policy. Collective action for hobby protection. In the cases of these sellers, some of their listings appear to be authentic stamps, but some items are clearly fakes and most of those are not being labelled as such. More than a few buyers have said as much in their feedback.

Wherever and whenever that happens it is a clear violation of rules eBay has published for all to see. Please look at them (link above). I am asking the members of this list to report, report, report the phony listings until eBay gets tired of hearing about it and takes action against the sellers who are dissing the eBay rules.

For those who WANT to buy fakes, have at it, but please try only by from sellers who follow the eBay rules. If you buy fakes from the sellers named in this thread, and do not report them after the material arrives, you won't be helping the hobby.

For those who would like to see some of this get better, don't expect eBay to roll over because you snap your fingers. A lone voice is not very loud. Nonetheless, for the sake of their official policy they will take action if a bunch of us make legitimate complaint against those who are breaking the rules. So, join me in doing that, not for my sake, but for the sake of the hobby.

Added note: As for a fear of pushback, complaints to eBay are between you and the venue. The seller won't know who said what unless you tell them yourself.


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Edited by essayk - 05/30/2022 6:31 pm
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Posted 05/30/2022   7:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Section 230 aside, the way in which eBay responds depends upon who is asking. Disney says copyright infringement and eBay snaps to attention. Ford dealers are losing sales to fake parts eBay snaps to attention.
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Posted 05/31/2022   02:35 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
essayk, your link is not working (error 500), eBay has no requirement to follow their policy which eBay can change at will (nor will I hold them responsible to follow it) and as has been said before, why should eBay believe you, or me or anyone about a listing? Disney, Ford Motor Company, the USPS Postal Inspectors yes, but why us? By the way the US Postal Inspection Service, a Federal Law Enforcement Organization is not, N, O, T, NOT keeping up with modern fake stamps being sold on eBay.

If you really what to do something about it buy the items, put together your irrefutable proof of falseness and take it to eBay. Me life is too short and this is not a hill I want to climb let alone die upon. Have at it. But once you get Iamaselleroffakes dropped from eBay (if they don't just add 'fantasy' to each listing) the seller will return as Iamaselleroffakesprime. How much business have you done with eBay in the last 90 days? One subject of this thread as I pointed out did over $20K. Want to give someone a reason to be a mole in the whack-a-mole game, $20K per quarter is a good incentive.

Here is a now locked thread running some 27 pages on the same general topic: http://goscf.com/t/58696&whichpage=1 and within that thread you can get the information to branch off into the "(Ryle) Cartel" multiple threads in SCF. I did not see your name in the posters essayk thus am not sure you read any on the thread. It does a good job of explaining my personal opinion of life is too short comment above. Nor by the way do I have the same level of interest in rock as does Sisyphus. [closest fit:

Below is a quote of one post from that thread, a post on point and difficult to refute:


Quote:
Sellers already have to refund shipping costs on SNAD claims. More importantly, what level of proof is required to determing that an item is "mis-described"? Just the buyer's say-so? A negative cert opinion? If the latter, who bears the cost?

Why would they implement programs like this for a miniscule category like stamps when they have not done so for much larger collectibles categories?

It's a potential minefield and time sink for eBay, and they are NOT going to down the road of granular determination and splitting of hairs.

You have to look at this whole issue from a business-owners perspective. Does the result justify the effort with respect to the business's costs involved.

Like it or not, reality has to rule the day here, not wishful thinking.


In the eBay back channels there was a brief discussion of only allowing certified (in philatelic language: stuff with certs) philatelic material be listed. While it would prevent your issue essayk, the blow back killed if not postponed the idea. If that was the case, want to lay odd that your sellers would set up Fly By Night Expertizing Service and Pizza Delivery LLC?


Edited for spelling
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Edited by Parcelpostguy - 05/31/2022 1:57 pm
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