Reversed Paper Or Reversed Watermark ?

I believe that the wire impression lines found (ribbing) and the watermark was created almost at the same time during the papers production whilst in the wet stage, and that the roll was reversed later but prior to printing.

I can partially agree with you rogdcam in that the reversed impression lines discovered could have been made if the paper had been fed upside down, but I have ruled this out as this would have also created an inverted watermark when was stamps were printed.

The roll could not have been reversed after the stamps had been gummed otherwise they would have been printed on the gummed side, and this was not the case. WM

An in-depth discussion of ribbed paper:

http://goscf.com/t/61224&whichpage=1

I harp upon using the correct terminology because philately is already afflicted by ad-libbing and multiple meanings of the same term. It only serves to add confusion to something that already can be confusing enough on its own.

Your stamps are not on ribbed paper but you insist on throwing "ribbed" into everything you write.

I have never said that the stamps had been printed on a ribbed paper Rogdcam, but that single 45-degree ribbing could be seen within the papers structure.

I have even asked you to give an alternative to the terminology used !!!

You don't have to knock your head against a brick wall in order to give an answer, do you ? WM.

WM, if you look through many of the 8000+ posts made by rodgcam you could answer your own question easily. But if that is too much for you, I will help:

Yes






https://harvardartmuseums.org/artic...or-s-passion

See 4th paragraph under subheading "Structures and Patterns" from which this is lifted, "We call this kind of paper laid. When we change the angle of light and let the light shine through the paper, we create transmitted light—that's when the chain and laid lines become clearly visible" with the illustrations of the section clearly showing what you call 'ribs' as chain lines in laid paper.

I am sure that rogdcam can answer for himself without your intervention parcelpostguy WM.

First see my added edit in my first post above this. It showed after you last post.




Yes he can but I was trying to save him from more " " and I supplied your answer anyway (see above).

Are you trying to say that this is a "laid" paper ?

And no doubt you have the answer as to why there is a reversal within the structure of the paper.

I am all ears ! WM

As I wrote previously, paper structure once produced as paper cannot be changed. watermarks are intended to be seen from the face up side. Of course that means little unless there is a clear difference between normal and mirror image such a letters or numbers in the watermark which at a glance will reveal if normal of reverse.

Now as to the ability of placing the watermarking dandy roll in the paper-making machine only with one end towards the left side of the wire web; or, if it can be turned 180 degrees (end-for-end) so the so the same dandy roll end can be towards the left or right edge of the wire web, is not a question I can answer. Others should be able to but that does not mean those with the informational knowledge will respond here. However if the dandy roll is not restricted to one orientation, then it could produce either a right-side up or right-side down image as seen from the front face of the paper. Be aware right-side down (face up turned 180 degrees, called "inverted" on US stamps) is not the same as mirror (paper is turned over, face side down, called "reversed" on US stamps).

On US stamps, watermark varieties we noticed 100 years after they were used and some of these are still being discovered on different stamp issues. I would not be surprised to see such occurring on the watermarked stamps of other countries.

Thanks for the confidence, but it is misplaced. I will play detective here for you. If the paper and just the paper structure is different I point to the wire web which acts as the bedding for spreading the pulp (the bottom) with the felt or felt like top applying pressure (the top or face-side of the finished paper) to compress and force out the excess water from the thinly spread pulp through the wire mesh bottom.

Think about the woven wire web. As it is produced it has two sides, one I will call T and one I will call B. A length of this woven wire web is cut with the two ends being "stitched" together to make a continuous belt. There is no reason the stitched belt is always made with the T side of the woven wire web inside of the belt. It can just as equally be created with the B side of the woven wire web on the inside of the belt. This is the reality of what is possible however, with normal web to belt production, it is quite likely most will have either the T or B inside the finished belt if for no other reason that mass production seems to prefer a repetitive process. Cut the belt, raise the two ends up and stitch; cut the belt, raise the two sides up and stitch; cut the belt and raise the two sides up and stitch and so on. If the web has the T side up the T side will be to the interior of the belt each time. B side up, the B side will be to the interior. For actual paper production, it matters not if it is the T or B side to the interior. It is still a belt upon which pulp is spread and pressed down upon by the felt.

Thus the web side, T or B which as different of "backwards [my term]" from each other with produce different structures in the finished paper depending if the belt contacts the paper pulp with the T or B side of the original woven wire web being used for the woven wire fabric belt.

Color me thick as a brick but I fail to see what any of this has to do with the paper or doody rolls or wet mesh or broken teacups and misplaced pronouns. The paper is the paper is the paper in this case. On which side the design was printed is what this cosmic discussion is all about and a peanut butter and banana sandwich (fried).

Oops, can someone pass me a "paper is the paper is the paper" napkin napkin? Preferably a soft silk India blue metal die cut lace edged Delavan Monogram embossed granite paper napkin with an inverted reversed vertical USIR watermark, a cotton towel or let the dog in.

A WOVE paper has certain characteristics whereby a pattern can be determined within its embodiment, usually either running in a vertical and horizontal or as a diagonal criss-cross pattern, a combination of what is known as the WARP and the WEFT giving the WEAVE, I believe your terminology was B+T parcelpostguy.

The paper that these stamps were made from do not follow the same pattern, in that they only have single wire sided markings, a difference that can be easily identified by examining the reverse of the stamps and is worthy of note, especially with some of them being in the opposite direction.

As far as viewing a watermark is concerned you are not saying anything new with regards to viewing it from the front, but the reverse image can be seen much clearer when looking from the unprinted side along with any other variations which may have occurred such as the opaqueness or its translucent qualities including other variances in the form of sideways or inverted watermarks.

In finding a paper that has a difference I have been most surprised being a newcomer in the way it has been received by some of the members here, as there is no need to make a song and dance about it. WM

I used T & B to describe the two sides of the wire web belt on the paper making machine. T & B were my terms solely to identify one side from the other side of the metal woven web belting on the machine. Here woven means how the wire strands are interlaced to make a fabric.

Wove paper means paper which appears uniform due to the close weaving of the wires such that there is little (comparably) space between the wires.

For paper I used the terms face (front) and back. The term face/front is used by paper makers with the watermark design to be read or viewed from the front/face of the paper as manufactured. NOW WHAT IS IMPORTANT is that for stamp collectors, the viewing of watermarks is always done from the back of the stamp, meaning the other-side from the printed side of the stamp. The printed side of a stamp has no intended relationship to the face/front of the manufactured paper. Thus the variations which normally occur due to different orientations while interesting are not normally considered significant by the majority of collectors. While a small percentage of collectors in one specialty area may see significance in certain variances, it is still a small sub-group of collectors compared the the number of stamp collectors that can be found throughout the world. Likewise these small subgroups may have different considerations and focus when compared to each other. That is why I have not referenced the paper details of US Collectors for US stamps since that is different from UK collectors.

As to what you may have found as "a difference" the reason the cold shoulder was encountered is likely because it does not matter much, if at all, to the vast majority of collectors.

The reality is the paper used to print any stamp is never the same from stamp to individual stamp if one takes a deep enough detailed view. For example the length of the 10 longest fibers visible on a stamp. There is no reason to expect that to be equal from one stamp to another. For silk papers, papers where special fibers are added to be visible, there is no expectation the number of added fibers will be exactly the same from stamp to stamp. That does not mean such a detail count matters to no one, there may be a person or two it does matter to but they should not be surprised should their finding be of little or no interest to others. Different does not always equal significant or even noteworthy.

There is a issue now developing in US philately regarding certain colors of stamps. What a human perceives as a color, say brown, is brown by human eyeball perception, it is now only considered brown if certain characteristics are present when tested by scientific apparatus which looks at things at a level beyond normal vision and common optical magnification. So yes, both stamps look brown but only one has the correct microscopic materials within the stamp to be accepted as the "correct brown" stamp. This make science geeks quite happy to be doing testing and making discoveries, but the result for the common collector is, since I can't trust my eyeballs and don't don't want to pay lots of money to scientifically test a stamp with the testing cost far exceeding the value of the base stamp, I will just skip collecting that one.

Lastly I will explain some US interest. As to watermarking on a single postage stamp. Is it watermarked, yes or no? If watermarked is it single line or double line? Does the watermark show the letter I (lower case written as i) from the incorrectly used USIR watermark? For blocks the question when watermarked is it standard or a progressive watermark (on progressive the next row down does not have a U under the U of USPS). Orientation differences are generally noted and ignored. Perforation hole diameter sizes have become noteworthy. Paper has not changed much except to learn the China Clay Paper is no longer considered a paper type and certain sheet postage stamps were printed on paper which what was intended to be used to produce booklet pane stamps. When first noted these differences took or are taking time to gain traction with general collectors.

In closing, while my interest in UK stamps and paper is not deep, I wish you well in your paper study. Just remember what matters to you, may not matter to anyone else but if it makes you happy, that is what matters. Of course your reception may change if you are discussing your finding with other specialists in UK paper types. Perhaps such a group exists, but I have no knowledge of such to point you in a direction. But this US based open to collectors throughout the world forum may not be where to find them. Good luck.

Edited to prove English is my first language.

Give that man a cookie!