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Reversed Paper Or Reversed Watermark ?

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Posted 06/06/2022   6:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Germania to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Wilding mad, the stripes are reminiscent of the stripes found on some papers used for printing stamps of Thuringia in 1945. The Michel catalog designates them p1 and p2 and they are very collectable as separate varieties, with catalog prices to match. Michel calls them "striped paper". So continue your research - is one paper more common than the other? With enough study SG may eventually give them catalog status.
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Posted 06/06/2022   7:18 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
In my opinion specialized study of stamps should be welcome and embraced by hobbyists. It is not uncommon that once a hobbyist gets to a certain point in their collecting, they begin to look deeper into what they enjoy. While some of these 'deep dives' might not be everyone's cup of tea, our hobby should always support these efforts.

That being said, the impact of adding endless numbers of 'varieties' to general catalogs can be detrimental to the hobby. This hobby already is challenging for new folks looking to break into it, adding more complexity and additional learning curves is not likely to increase odds of attracting newcomers. Additionally, increasing size and cost of albums and catalogs with thousands and thousands of varieties represents more barriers to entry to the hobby.

I think there is a place for specialized discovery in our hobby, I am just not sure that the end goal should be more general album and catalog entries.
Don
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Bedrock Of The Community
Australia
36778 Posts
Posted 06/06/2022   7:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I favour your comments, Don,
often the voice of reason here.

I find the status quo, fine
we have general catalogues, and monographs, specialist catalogues,
for those whom want to dig deeper.

Finally we have forums like these for those who tread an even finer line
such as WM.

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Edited by rod222 - 06/06/2022 7:59 pm
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United Kingdom
337 Posts
Posted 06/06/2022   11:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Wilding mad to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
There are many enthusiastic stamp collectors who are satisfied just to fill the gaps in illustrated album pages in order to complete sets, either in mint or used condition, and others who prefer to collect specific artwork or themes of a particular subject depicted on stamps.

There may be some educational advantages to be gained by these collectors, but the true learning of stamps comes from individual studies relating to many hours of devoted work in comparing and identifying different aspects of a stamp previously not recognised before.

The reason for exhibiting my findings is to make you aware of the differences found and of their existence due to the fact that in many cases they have not been mentioned or listed in catalogues or their specialised equivalent before.

I have now been studying British Elizabethan stamp papers for around 4 years and the amount of varieties I have discovered that are not listed is beyond belief.

Here is a typical example of such a find that was made whilst examining some pre-decimal commemoratives relating to the 5d value1970 Christmas stamp.

I selected 4 used examples of the said stamp (two frontal and two reverse images) in order to exhibit the differential found....

Neither of the above-mentioned varieties of these particular stamps are worth much, but the difference is quite obvious when inspected under long wave ultraviolet light and adds a new variety for the collector to bear in mind.

This is just one of the many varieties of paper I have found that are currently unlisted in which to show you in due course. WM.
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Posted 06/07/2022   12:16 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
There are many enthusiastic stamp collectors who are satisfied just to fill the gaps in illustrated album pages in order to complete sets, either in mint or used condition, and others who prefer to collect specific artwork or themes of a particular subject depicted on stamps.[quote]

[quote]There may be some educational advantages to be gained by these collectors, but the true learning of stamps comes from individual studies relating to many hours of devoted work in comparing and identifying different aspects of a stamp previously not recognised before.


Not for everyone. To each their own.
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Netherlands
2107 Posts
Posted 06/07/2022   01:34 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
When you start to study used stamps and find 'collectable' fluorescent varieties, consider that the fluorescence may be the result of the use or soaking of the stamps and not of the production. Up to 1962, and especially Wildings, may show differences in fluorescence. This is due to the rags used in production of the paper containing, or not, fluorescent agents.

Later papers had a whiter finish and around 1960 clay coating was applied. This may dampen fluorescence from the front, but not from the back. When soaking the stamps, you can damage the coating. Also, if the liquid you use for soaking contains fluorescent agents your non-fluorescent coated stamp may become fluorescent.

Highly specialised collectors of pre-decimal Machins discern between two types of original coated paper (OCP). SG does not list these at all. This, already, reflects that the purpose even of a specialised catalogue depends on how much interest there is for collecting.

Studies of papers add to the knowledge and will be appreciated by the big national societies an specialist societies. So, do not stop studying. But also bear in mind not everything is a variety. The environment may create varieties, especially for used stamps.

Galeoptix was very much into studying papers. Roy-Hamilton Bowen (Hibernian Handbook, Ireland) once told me he had identified seven different papers for the third Irish definitive series (Architecture). He lists only three in his handbook. The reason for this was the negative reaction he received.
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Posted 06/07/2022   03:15 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
...There may be some educational advantages to be gained by these collectors, but the true learning of stamps comes from individual studies relating to many hours of devoted work in comparing and identifying different aspects of a stamp previously not recognised before...


I strongly disagree with this opinion. It could just as easily be stated that 'true philatelic learning occurs when hobbyists enter the relm of postal history'. (Or fill in any other segment of the hobby.) In my opinion, 'true learning' in our hobby occurs at every level and nothing makes one area of study any better than another.

I also think that our hobby needs to remember what it was like to first enter the hobby. Faced with significant amounts to learn and money to be spent, we should work towards making entry into the hobby free of judgmental attitudes which diminish whatever anyone is interested in.

This topic is timely for me, our local club has been working towards developing improved philatelic presentations. Like most clubs (including the SCF online family), ours is made up of all kinds of collectors and levels of knowledge. Some are highly specialized; some are casual collectors.

Over time we noticed that when one of our specialized folks gave a 40+ slide presentation, many in the audience were, ummm, 'less than engaged'. If existing collectors are not engaged in a specialize presentation imagine what would happen if the same presentation was given to non-collectors.

I think that presentations which are designed to capture interest of as many in the audience as possible are best for local clubs and when trying to interest and attract new hobbyists. And that specialize presentations are best for international/national level audiences where like-minded hobbyists tend to gather.

This venue has many things going for it that makes it a great place to publish information at any level. First, it is informational 'pull' and not 'push'. In other words, folks choose what they want to read and what they want to skip over. And second, the reach is worldwide so having highly specialized threads/posts are great for connecting those with similar interests.
Don
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United Kingdom
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Posted 06/07/2022   06:35 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Wilding mad to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
[rogdcam]........ Of course it's each to their own, in other words horses for courses......... That is not in dispute !!!!

[51 studebaker].......... On a personal basis after readings a post themed on topicals such as ships or sheep etc. I do not feel to have learnt anything other than seeing a different picture especially when little or no text is involved, but after reading a posting based on the production of stamps the educational side has a tendency to be stimulated.

Obviously your perception regarding education will be different than mine!

Trying to get others involved in the hobby is one of my main concerns and reasons for posting on a forum such as this, along with the giving of information discovered from many hours of investigations made on the subject.

[NSK]............. The Elizabethan chalk surfaced stamps was first introduced on the 7th of July 1960 concerning the 3d GLO commemorative, and the only definitives that had this treatment was the halfpenny & twopence-half penny stamps from the 2/- holiday booklet the only other one being the 3d value from the Isle of Man.

I beg to differ with you on the reason in the production of fluorescent papers initially produced from ragging, as this was NOT the case.

Some of the rag used to make the paper was contaminated with a highly fluorescent compound known as stilbene, used to create that whiter than white look found in washing powders such as DAZ etc. Apparently these rags was inadvertently mixed with the normal rag in the production of the paper, giving the stamp paper contaminated with fluorescent particles/fibres.

Fluorescent paper was produced as to one of the reasons in order to mask/camouflage the contamination found with the deliberate additional use of optical brightening agents during the pulp stage.

Here is an example of a contaminated stamp paper with a relevant caption. >

Every picture tells a story ! WM.
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Edited by Wilding mad - 06/07/2022 06:44 am
Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
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Posted 06/07/2022   07:26 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I never said


Quote:
the reason in the production of fluorescent papers initially produced from ragging
.

I said the ragging was a source for the fluorescent reaction of papers that were not fluorescent (coated) papers. I also said soaking may cause fluorescent reaction. Consequently, one should, especially when looking at used stamps, be careful to 'discover' fluorescent stamps that were never (intentionally) printed on fluorescent paper.
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Edited by NSK - 06/07/2022 07:30 am
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United Kingdom
337 Posts
Posted 06/07/2022   08:07 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Wilding mad to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
[NSK]...........
This was NOT the case with the Wilding m/c stamps.

The main cause for fluorescently contaminated stamps comes mainly from the Machin period when many of the issues had been coated with a fluorescent substance that was highly fugitive when introduced to water, especially with the used stamps when being soaked off their packaging.

Here is an attachment of contaminated Machin stamps thus affected. >

Many collectors do not realise they have contaminated stamps due to an incorrect soaking off procedure. WM.
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Posted 06/07/2022   08:53 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Some collectors use 'a drop of dishing liquid' when soaking stamps. Dishing washing liquid contains optical brighteners (to make dishes look brighter when washed) and this will cause the soaked stamps to light up under UV wave lengths.
Don
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Posted 06/07/2022   09:32 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Wilding mad to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
As to why some collectors use a drop of washing-up liquid in the water to soak off stamps is a bit of a mystery, I have also met some collectors who put salt in the water, I can only think that the additive is possibly used to remove any residual gum.

Unless you can suggest an alternative reason !

I would not recommend the use of additives in water for the process of soaking off.
WM.
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Posted 06/07/2022   09:41 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I think that virtually every 'how do I clean/soak stamps' thread we have had in this community over the years have had posts which mention adding soap to 'clean' the stamps. Just a quick sample of some of them
https://www.stampcommunity.org/topi...PIC_ID=24161
http://goscf.com/t/77105
http://goscf.com/t/79556

Use the forum 'search' function to find many, many more.

And of course there are folks who might do it intentionally for the purpose of deception. Simply get some OxiClean or other household product and paint or whatever 'tagging' you might want on a used stamp. To get really creative, use a makeup airbrush and mask the stamp to get crisp 'tagging' lines.
Don

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United Kingdom
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Posted 06/07/2022   10:08 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Wilding mad to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Many of the postings on these links referre mainly to preservation or restoration ie foxing etc. In using hydrogen peroxide.

I can only speak for the process of soaking off used stamps in clean cold water.

And NEVER use boiling water with phosphor tagged stamps, as the phosphor bands will come up as white lines with zero response to shortwave UV. WM

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Posted 06/07/2022   10:16 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
There are literally dozens of threads which mention using liquid soap when soaking stamps, here are more
http://goscf.com/t/37259

https://www.stampcommunity.org/topi...PIC_ID=23024

https://www.stampcommunity.org/topi...PIC_ID=24378

http://goscf.com/t/54507

http://goscf.com/t/45423&whichpage=1

https://www.stampcommunity.org/topi...PIC_ID=34910

The point is not what you personally do, the point is that soaked stamps may or may not have been exposed to optical brighteners. This is probably why NSK mentioned not using soaked stamps as definitive evidence of a tagged variety.

If it was me and I found what I thought was a tagging variety on a used stamp, I would expand my discovery to include mint examples to verify.
Don
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