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Discussion Time: Is This Civil War-Era Cdv With Black Jack Genuine? Would You Bid?

 
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Posted 06/21/2022   08:35 am  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add revenuecollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I'm going to ask our resident revenue experts to please not chime in until others have had an opportunity to give their opinions.

This is an auction currently underway on eBay, an aesthetically interesting Civil War-era CDV with a grilled Andrew Jackson "Black Jack" presumably used to pay tax. With 6.5 days left to go the CDV has garnered 6 bids up to $26.00.

Do you believe this item is authentic? If so why? If not, why not? What are the indicators both pro and con?

There is no text description per se. Below the screenshot of the auction are the actual unedited photos provided by the seller.

Auction link: https://www.ebay.com/itm/363879972766














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Posted 06/21/2022   10:10 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Just guessing here...
Outside of the CDV tax period? (1860 too early?)
Why is the extra paper attached to the back of the CDV? (Seems logical that tax laws would want the stamp directly on the item and not on a piece of paper attached to it?
Don
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Posted 06/21/2022   10:25 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wtcrowe to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
If the year date is 1867, the stamp was not yet issued. It appears to be a Scott 87. In any event, there are no grilled Black Jacks recorded prior to January 1868.
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Posted 06/21/2022   10:28 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The grilled Black Jack's were not in use until 1868.
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Posted 06/21/2022   10:38 am  Show Profile Check GeoffHa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GeoffHa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
But is the last digit of the cancel a "0" or an "8"? 1860 isn't the Civil War period in any case.
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Posted 06/21/2022   10:47 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I think that CDVs were only taxed up to the end of July 1866.
Don
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Posted 06/21/2022   11:23 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
and not on a piece of paper attached to it?


Query is way over my head, but to the above,
how can a piece of paper attached, get rust marks from a postcard
It must have laid adjacent to some tin, at some other time.

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Posted 06/21/2022   12:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add alub to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
how can a piece of paper attached, get rust marks from a postcard


Because the photo is a "tin type", as the listing describes. The metal photo is sandwiched between a card-stock "frame" and a backing paper. The edge of the photo is rusting, and that is the rust marks you are seeing.

I do find the ink spot on the stamp odd. It runs down between the perforations and does to seem to run on to the card itself.

I am also troubled by the marks at the bottom of the stamp. They seem to run under the stamp, but do not affect the stamp. It makes me wonder if something was removed and the stamp was placed over the spot.
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Posted 06/21/2022   2:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Because the photo is a "tin type", as the listing describes. The metal photo is sandwiched between a card-stock "frame" and a backing paper. The edge of the photo is rusting, and that is the rust marks you are seeing.


Wow! that's a first, many thanks for the explanation.
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Posted 06/21/2022   3:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
But is the last digit of the cancel a "0" or an "8"?


That is not a cancellation, it is a date stamp applied by the photographer who was in business in Lancaster from 1855-1876. A dating was requested when a revenue was affixed but that does not preclude this photographer from dating his photographs separate from revenue needs.

Besides the 0 & 8, a 6 or 9 are possible. Hard to tell except in person and even then it could be difficult. For the tax to be 2 cents, 1866 (of the four possible, 1860, 1866, 1868 & 1869) would need to be the year but the grilled stamp did not yet exist and the tax ended August 1866, months prior to the date. Additionally, I dislike the area below the stamp such that I think this stamp was added just for that reason. This stamp did not originate on this photograph.

This item was likely part of a bulk auction lot purchase where the selling auction house did not choose to lot the item separately and seemingly for good reason.

The eBay seller here is quite good and will take back items with an issue such as this if purchased in error.

Edit: Thomas Cummings was first to use ambrotype/collodian process commercially.
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Edited by Parcelpostguy - 06/21/2022 3:32 pm
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Posted 06/21/2022   3:42 pm  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add revenuecollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Parcelpostguy summed it up quite well, and Don was also on the right path.

The stamp type aligns with the date of the handstamp, which IMO reads 1869, so whoever put it there made at least some attempt to make things match up. The problem is that is 3+ years past the close of the 2-year taxation window on photos, so there is zero reason for that stamp to be there.

Even if the date of the handstamp is some date other than 1869, this particular stamp could not possibly have existed during the period that photos were taxed.

A contrived piece IMO.
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Posted 06/21/2022   10:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Any members have any links to tin Postcards ?
Cannot believe I have not crossed paths with these before.

Curious as to how they were made.

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Posted 06/21/2022   10:40 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
No chance that it is a genuine revenue use.
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Posted 06/21/2022   10:51 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Any members have any links to tin Postcards ?


If you mean mounted tintype photographs, try here:

https://www.thesprucecrafts.com/bri...anent-images

Otherwise pieces of flat tin were cut to shape, message written, stamped and mailed. I have sent a few in my day all usually purchased in rural USA stores. Interesting in the manner of wood, leather and other non-paper postal cards.
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Edited by Parcelpostguy - 06/22/2022 12:02 am
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Posted 06/21/2022   11:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks,
amazing, I could not see how they produced a photographic image on a tin plate.
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