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How To Get Scott's To Include More Efos With Error Book?

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Posted 08/29/2022   3:37 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add EFO_collector to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I'm newer to stamp collecting, and am collecting EFOs because of their uniqueness.

I've noticed that Scott's error catalog, while genuinely helpful, is missing many errors, presumably because of their uniqueness and the pruning it would cost to include (when many EFOs may be limited to 100 or so).

But, Scott's error catalog is now shifting to a digital format and thus should be able to include many more errors (for example, 4 Tom Sawyer error stamps with color misregistration sold on Siegel for $800).

Assuming certified stamps, how do you get Scott's to acknowledge EFOs? Any suggestions? Or does Scott's just do what it does. And leave it at that?
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Posted 08/29/2022   3:55 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Error's they list. Freaks and oddities they don't; I am sure they consider them "beyond the scope of the catalog". They might produce a specific EFO catalog at some point, but that is likely the only way the F and O portions of EFO will ever be listed in Scott.
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Posted 08/29/2022   5:42 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
There is the EFO Collector's Club which arose in 1978. The journals are mostly one line for members. Google will get you to the website or: https://www.efocc.org/ . There have been auctions of EFOs in the EFO Collector for over 40 years which will give you a wonderful overview of what is out there. (Full disclosure: I became a member in late '78 or very early '79 and remain one today.)

Now in general Errors are production problems which can be replicated exactly and usually involve one or more complete elements different from that which was intended. For example if missing the red color, it must be completely missing with no red whatsoever visible under magnification.

Freaks which are quite interesting in their own right, have significant if not infinite slight differences. A misperforation can have the perforation appear anywhere in the stamp design between where the normal left-side perforations and the normal right-side perforation can be. Such in general cannot be exactly reproduced.

A detailed overview and classification of the possible Errors, Freaks and Oddities can be found here: https://www.efocc.org/Resources/Hot...AA_Cover.php

The original Datz Error Book was limited and remains limited (under the current publisher) to just errors which are fixed and finite. The book explains why. But in short, freaks are not limited and by nature, very greatly and not fully reproducible thus resulting in each example being different from all others which then precludes a consistent example to price. Oddities just take on a life of there own and as such cannot be grouped into easy pricing categories. For both freaks and oddities, eye appeal drives pricing and yes there are freaks worth far more than some errors.

The highest catalog value EFO is the US 85A a Z-grill, but with a double impression of the grill.

May you enjoy expanding your knowledge of EFOs.



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Posted 08/29/2022   7:53 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
There is also the issue of what actually makes its way through USPS, into the retail supply chain, and actually sold to the public.

In my opinion, it would not be a 'good thing' to make a marketplace for 'printers waste' which would only encourage the theft of such waste 'out the back door' of supply chain companies.
Don
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Posted 08/29/2022   8:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
In my opinion, it would not be a 'good thing' to make a marketplace for 'printers waste' which would only encourage the theft of such waste 'out the back door' of supply chain companies.


Which obviously already happens to some degree anyway. I agree it would be a bad idea.
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Posted 08/29/2022   8:44 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
In my opinion, it would not be a 'good thing' to make a marketplace for 'printers waste' which would only encourage the theft of such waste 'out the back door' of supply chain companies.
Don


Remember the Nixon stamps?

https://www.tampabay.com/archive/19...tolen-goods/
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Posted 09/01/2022   1:50 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add EFO_collector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the feedback.

And, I understand what you mean by the nearly infinitesimal possibilities of freaks and oddities.

While being a more recent collector, I've amassed quite a bit.

Still, given that there's indication that Scott, being the definitive stamp price guide (even if it's really anyone's guess how much for which a stamp will be sold), is going digital, it would make sense that it could encompass all types, as long as they have a certificate.

For people who collect these EFOs, it's to your benefit that prices sold be established in Scott's, as it sets the precedent for future increases.

It may be fun to collect, but the day comes when the collection is sold or it's a legacy. And how much it gets for ourselves or heirs depends on our actions.

And, if we're honest with ourselves or at least in my humble opinion EFOs are the most interesting, and should be the most expensive stamps.

And, that's why the upside-down Jenny, CIA invert, etc. are so valuable.

Scarcity, uniqueness, identification, and value they're all important, but uniqueness shines above all.

And, unless we're able to record that uniqueness and its value somewhere, it's like the transaction didn't occur that it had no previous value and each transaction is new.

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Posted 09/01/2022   2:22 pm  Show Profile Check GeoffHa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GeoffHa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Actually, if I'm "honest with myself", most of these stamps ghastly. They may also be deliberately manufactured by printing companies and, of course, simply be junk stolen by printers' employees. I don't think that Spink's catalogue for its "Hermione" sale of a few years ago is still immediately accessibke on line, but that included substantial numbers of bizarre misperforations etc. Most of these could not have evaded scrutiny at (a) the printer or (b) the post office - they were plainly damaged, stolen goods.
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Posted 09/01/2022   8:10 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"Still, given that there's indication that Scott, being the definitive stamp price guide (even if it's really anyone's guess how much for which a stamp will be sold), is going digital, it would make sense that it could encompass all types, as long as they have a certificate."

Most freaks do not have certs as most aren't worth enough to make it practical. And speaking of practical, the Scott people already have enough work to do with what already is listed without adding a new category.

"For people who collect these EFOs, it's to your benefit that prices sold be established in Scott's, as it sets the precedent for future increases."

You are misusing the word precedent. While a listing in Scott would likely cause an increase in demand, which could cause a one time value increase, there is nothing about a Scott listing that will lead to multiple value increases.
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Posted 09/06/2022   2:54 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rismoney to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I am with EFO Collector. Love them, can't get enough. Implying they were mostly stolen is definitely a reach. I am not saying that some didn't sneak out (probably has been that way forever), but printers waste have largely been documented, even by Scott. Scott says in the specialized catalog, that a slew of different issues were indeed printers waste and not to confuse them with actual legit errors.

But to be honest, the risk isn't really worth the reward on that front. A sheet of a modern major shift, might only fetch $1000-$5000. (color omits/imperfs are definitely higher, but how often you think you could sneak a sheet out of a printer before they put surveillance on you and you go to federal prison?) A lot easy ways to scam than this.

With the shear number of total stamps printed, a misregistration, or alignment of perfs will invariably slip through the cracks, every few million sheets. If the damaged sheets make it to a post office, who is to say the counter clerk, knows or quite honestly care if it gets sold. They just want you to leave and stop annoying them. My belief, is they are mostly sold legitimately, and I myself have been a couple of borked stamps over time, just through happenstance. Nothing like an omit, but it happens. In fact at a big stamp show, errors were discovered, if I recall from the magic souvenir sheet.



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Posted 09/06/2022   3:28 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Having legitimate postal usage OR being able to prove the stamps were actually sold by the postal service goes a long way in proving the material is not printers waste. The situation is not helped by those who aggressively promote them including a handful of dealers who have definitely buy and trade in printers waste. They sit on large quantities of these things and dole them out like they are some rarities. There are endless stories, some going back decades, of huge quantities of printer's waste. A quick word search of Scott catalog reveals 49 occurrences of 'printers waste' in just the US catalog. There are hundreds more in the world-wide catalogs.

I would also encourage those who support this segment of our hobby to help answer the large number of new people who enter this community and think they can retire early because they have an off-center stamp. Having a slew of online listings with stupid pricing also does not help this segment of the hobby.

I support whatever anyone wants to collect, but I have always struggled with the fact that NO ONE knows what the postal service specification is for a sheet of stamps (quality-wise). For example, how much of a mis-registration is allowable as per the USPS (before they would call if no good and not accept it from a printer? Without knowing this, no one can say for sure if the mis-registration is an actual "error" or just an acceptable crappy quality sheet of stamps.
Don
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Posted 09/06/2022   3:37 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
IMO, this is beyond the scope of Scott. As examples,
Scott does not individually list the thousands of plate varieties listed in French's "Encyclopedia of Plate Varieties ..." Only a few noteworthy ones.
Scott does not individually list the thousands of Bureau-printed precancels, again, only the noteworthy ones.
Scott's listings of embossed envelopes is simplified from the highly detailed listings of the UPSS.
Etc., etc.
Thus I have contended for many years that the Scott Specialized Catalog is in reality the Scott Semi-Specialized Catalog, and this is exactly why we have specialist societies to publish journals and monographs to provide the next level of detail. A perfect place for the EFO Collectors Club to do its thing.
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Posted 09/06/2022   8:07 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Having been inside the stamp half of the BEP twice I can tell you that it would be hard to sneak something out of there. It is my impression that the typical way printers waste comes to the market is it is "rescued" at the waste disposal site and it is often damaged in some way. Thue printers waste.

"For example, how much of a mis-registration is allowable as per the USPS (before they would call if no good and not accept it from a printer? Without knowing this, no one can say for sure if the mis-registration is an actual "error" or just an acceptable crappy quality sheet of stamps."

These would be freaks not errors.

I don't know what specs the USPS puts on the printers, but towards the end the BEP and the USPS were not getting along and the BEP had the attitude that as long as the die cutting isn't into the design, ship it (coils were consistently off quite a bit in the same direction, which would have been easy to correct, but they didn't bother).

The private printers have produced fewer EFOs that the BEP did. I don't know if it different procedures/precautions or a result of having newer equipment.

Besides stealing & "rescuing", they other way EFO material makes its way to the market is being sold at a PO. The inspectors at the printers are human and humans will miss things. The sales clerks are not supposed to sell EFOs (they are supposed to be turned back in), but it still happens. In the case of coils (and previously when there were folded booklets), they simply couldn't see what was inside. As for sheet stamps, you can argue they should be able to see them (although die cuts missing or shifted are harder to see than missing or shifted perfs). Could be a case of being in a hurry or not caring. I am also aware of cases clerks steering EFOs to favorite customers (and there could be cases of kickbacks being involved) and I am aware of cases where the clerks buy them for themselves. But in any of these cases, the material is not considered printers waste.

"Having legitimate postal usage OR being able to prove the stamps were actually sold by the postal service goes a long way in proving the material is not printers waste. "

How does one prove and FO was sold by a PO? Video your trip to the PO? How des one prove a usage is legit? It is easy to create a usage that appears legit.
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Posted 09/06/2022   8:08 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
JB - well argued.
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Posted 09/06/2022   8:37 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Two excellent examples of printer's waste finding its way out the backdoor so to speak are the 1969 6 Apollo 8 (Scott 1371) and the 1975 10 Pioneer-Jupiter (1556) issues. Imperf pairs of each trade in the $1500 to $2000 range which is more than most legitimate imperf errors. During the period of 1969 to 1975 the BEP had a contract with an off-site paper disposal company to haul away and burn the printer's waste. Obviously at least one person decided to divert some stamps and the rest is history.

One question I have is why these types of items are not considered stolen property thus making them unsaleable in the regular marketplace.
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Posted 09/06/2022   9:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
One question I have is why these types of items are not considered stolen property thus making them unsaleable in the regular marketplace.


Because 1969 is 53 years ago and 1975 is 47 years ago, and no one cares at this point.
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