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Any Info Regarding This Penny Black Stamped With Black Cross Please?

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Bedrock Of The Community
Australia
36877 Posts
Posted 09/26/2022   11:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Separating the Penny Black before Perforations (Pre Sloper)


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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
2144 Posts
Posted 09/27/2022   12:54 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Secondly, the date on the far right of the cover gives every impression of saying 1806, hence my request for a scan of the inside contents.


That, I noticed as well. But the '6' looks nothing like the '80' and is set differently.
My next thought was the distance. To be honest, the '1' may look more like the '80' but may also not have been written at the same time. 80 miles appears too short and 180 way too long. More importantly, there was a new uniform postage rate system. So, distance would be irrelevant.

Just above the stamp is a note (I think) March 20 41 that would fit the late use of a Penny Black, just after it was replaced by the Penny Red.

edit:


Quote:
I think the recipient would have been asked to pay the "postage due" charge of 1d, but hopefully somebody can confirm this.


After affixing a stamp, does the '2' denote the postage or the amount due?
So 2 - 1 = 1 or 1 + 2 = 3? 2d was the second weight step tariff, 3d was no letter rate in the early 1840s.

Still, I remain suspicious about the lack of 'tying' of the stamp.
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Edited by NSK - 09/27/2022 01:04 am
Pillar Of The Community
Australia
2238 Posts
Posted 09/27/2022   01:45 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
After affixing a stamp, does the '2' denote the postage or the amount due?


Not sure, but I would imagine it would be the postage due, which would be double the original deficiency.

The fact that it's written in black may be a further clue?
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Author of "The De La Rue Stamps of NSW" and "They Carried The Mails: The Conveyance of Post Office Mail in the Central West of NSW in the 19th Century"
Bedrock Of The Community
Australia
36877 Posts
Posted 09/27/2022   02:30 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
If the Inland office applied the "2" script and more to pay,
that seems to excuse the reason for the receiving house, to apply the penny black, upside down, in the bottom right hand corner.
That appears weird.
Any explanation for that?
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Edited by rod222 - 09/27/2022 02:30 am
Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
2144 Posts
Posted 09/27/2022   02:58 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Must read this after work.

https://www.rpsl.org.uk/rpsl/Displa...local%20post.

Rod,

I think GeoffHa has a valid point. If a post office clerk cut that stamp, he must have just guzzled a bottle of Scotch, blown a big joint, and been on an LSD trip. All points at a someone cutting a Penny Black stamp to shape to make it fit the Maltese Cross and adding it long after the letter was carried.

Edit: the "MORE TO PAY" handstamp and 2d indicate
1. There had been made some prepayment (likely 1d).
2. There was a deficiency of half of 2d, i.e. 1d.
3. Total postage, likely, was 1d paid + 1d underpaid = 2d, which was the 1/2 oz to 1 oz uniform postage rate in the early 1840s.
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Edited by NSK - 09/27/2022 03:13 am
Pillar Of The Community
Australia
2238 Posts
Posted 09/27/2022   04:35 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I'd say the stamp was applied by the sender, not at the receiving house.
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Author of "The De La Rue Stamps of NSW" and "They Carried The Mails: The Conveyance of Post Office Mail in the Central West of NSW in the 19th Century"
Bedrock Of The Community
Australia
36877 Posts
Posted 09/27/2022   04:36 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Cracking link!

Also suspicious of the Ink of the address
seems to remain a vivid black.

Generally "Iron Gall ink" of that period, show fading.

Often here on SCF we are asked to assess with Phone images
To me the Penny Black has extra black markings aside from the Maltese Cross.

A crisp 600dpi scan would indicate that
Perhaps skulduggery, someone re-using a stamp, cut from another parchment.

The fact that the sender has monogrammed paper, wax seal, and presumably
a monogrammed signet ring, suggests a knowledgeable correspondent.
Placing a stamp like that increases scepticism.

No honorific mentioned "Rev" in the address?
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Edited by rod222 - 09/27/2022 04:51 am
Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
2144 Posts
Posted 09/27/2022   05:03 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The original stamp may have become detached and someone found one with a Maltese Cross that, after some scissor crafting, fitted.

I do not doubt there was a stamp attached by the sender. "MORE TO PAY" would not have been used if there had not been any stamp attached. I am just suspicious of the current stamp not being that original stamp. Both the very bad way it is cut and the distance between the Maltese Cross on the entire and the stamp.

Edit for clarity: I am not in any way suggesting OP did this or is trying to fool us. If someone fiddled with the stamp, that may have been long ago.
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Edited by NSK - 09/27/2022 05:07 am
Valued Member
United Kingdom
7 Posts
Posted 09/27/2022   11:22 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lisawill76 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
hi all,

Clearly, I'm not as knowledgeable as any of you but I can honestly state this cover or stamp has not been fudged by me or my partner. We were presented with this particular folder (part payment for handyman job my partner did) full of covers with the penny red stamp on all but this cover which has the penny black stamp we've been showing here. I must admit I found the placement and cut strange too. Would it be worth my time to get it examined properly? As I don't think its valuable at all just very interesting.
Many thanks for sharing your knowledge with me on this cover.

Lisa
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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
2144 Posts
Posted 09/27/2022   12:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
You could drop into a nearby stamp shop or visit a local stamp show, or club meeting and ask someone who knows more about early Victorian postal history.
Even if the entire and stamp are original, the state of the stamp may not make it worthwhile having the entire expertised. Most expertisers will concentrate on the stamp.
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
7 Posts
Posted 09/27/2022   12:33 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lisawill76 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
thank you.
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