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Apparently Lindner Albums Use A Type Of Pvc. Is It Actually Safe?

 
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Valued Member
Netherlands
11 Posts
Posted 09/28/2022   5:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Fenrik07 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
So I recently decided to purchase my first official album pages for my Deutches Reich stamps from Lindner, which was the easiest/cheapest option where I live (that wasn't a simplified album such as Davo) They haven't arrived yet, but I did receive like a digital folder thing with all their products. I began reading it and then found that the plastic parts of the album page are made using a hard PVC 'acid and softener free' and that 'experts say this is archival safe'. I don't have much knowledge of plastics, but I do know that PVC is generally not the best choice for long term storage. Perhaps the use of this plastic is why so many of the older Lindner albums often seem to have yellow tinted plastic.

Lindner is well regarded as one of the best albums around though, so I'm assuming it actually is archival safe? Any expert thoughts/opinions on this?

Also according to the booklet the special paper's PH score is higher than 7.5. I'm assuming this is a good thing? I don't have much knowledge of PH either.
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Bedrock Of The Community
Australia
36841 Posts
Posted 09/28/2022   5:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It's probably good that you ask,
but it's much of a lucky dip.

The results I found some years ago
Lindner was "Think twice before using"

Those that had the tick were
Hagner stock sheet
GK DS 06 dealer stock book
showguard group WSE-3
supersaqfe museum crade currency holder
GK star sheet
GK Block file

test was 1 month exposure to direct sunlight
(10 megalux hours of light exposure)
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United States
3568 Posts
Posted 09/29/2022   06:25 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add angore to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The issue is that just because they are ok today a new production lot may not. The base resin may change (source, UV stabilizers. flame retardants) or there is just improper processing.

For example, Vario had some clear pages that yellowed that was likely due to the absence of UV stabilizers.
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Al
Edited by angore - 09/29/2022 06:27 am
Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
2126 Posts
Posted 09/29/2022   07:09 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
My 1990s Lindner T Blanko pages sometimes became slightly yellowish with time. I have not experienced this with pages from the last decades. They did produce pages with terrible glue in the 00s. But this also has been solved over a decade ago.
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Valued Member
United States
292 Posts
Posted 09/29/2022   10:49 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add svensson to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Some of mine are 10 years old now, I do not detect any yellowing.
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Valued Member
Switzerland
6 Posts
Posted 09/30/2022   02:30 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add drkohler to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
My booklet collection is stored mostly in 14-ring Lindner albums, the oldest ones are about 40 years old now.
None of my booklets or booklet panes show any signs of some infection. Some of the plastic inserts have started to tear apart where the plaastic is glued, but after 40 years that is bound to happen I guess. Unfortunately Lindner no longer makes the inserts I was using (10 or 15 pockets per page...).

The only curious thing I recently noticed is that the first plastic insert in some albums has turned yellowish-brown along the edges, like some degradation has occured. There actually is a yellowish-brown front and back plastic cover sheet in every new, empty album, so I wonder if those sheets are the culprits. I'll meet Lindner in a few weeks at a show, I wonder if they shrug it off or not...
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Posted 09/30/2022   06:37 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add angore to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I would be interested in hearing their response.
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Al
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Posted 09/30/2022   07:44 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
From the Smithsonian National Postal Museum:


Quote:
The word "archival" has become one of those terms used to sell products and make consumers feel safe. But with no regulations to control or define what constitutes an archival product, consumers must educate themselves.

If you are interested in using a plastic enclosure for housing or mounting your collection, ask the company or sales representatives about the chemical properties of their products. Look for plastic that is polyester, polyethylene or polypropylene. If you do not receive concise answers, move on to a different company.

Philatelic catalogs often reference 'safe vinyl' when referring to their enclosures, implying that it will not react with your collections. Often listed as polyvinyl chloride or PVC, vinyl is neither safe nor stable and is highly reactive. This reaction will, over time, cause permanent damage to the material in the enclosure.

When looking for quality enclosures for photographs or film, see if the material has passed the Photographic Activity Test or is marked "PAT Passed". This standard is developed by the Image Permanence Institute. Products must pass a series of rigorous testing to ensure their long term stability and preservation standards.

Enclosures for philatelic or paper collections should be made from an inert, clear plastic made of Polyester Film, Polyethylene or Polypropylene. "Inert" means chemically stable which indicates it will not react with other materials.

Polyester film includes Melinex , formerly known as Mylar. To store or display philatelic material, use a film with a thickness of 3 to 4 mil. These same materials are used by the museum for exhibitions and storage of the collections because it is transparent and therefore works well in albums and other types of displays.

Polyethylene is a softer, clear plastic, but not as clear as the polyester film. It is not as structurally sound as polyester or polypropylene, so it's recommended to never fully seal up objects in this type of plastic.

Polypropylene is similar to polyester film in clarity. It is also used as sleeves for storing photographs, papers and philatelic material. The museum often uses polypropylene page protectors for album pages when rehousing a collection.

Philatelists are one of the largest collecting groups worldwide and numerous companies are in the business of supplying them with products for the display and storage of their prized collections. Spend the time to research different companies (not just those specializing in philatelic supplies) and to review their catalogs to become an informed consumer.

Before selecting a plastic enclosure, ask for some samples or order a small quantity. Experiment. Find the product that will work best with your personal collecting needs. Once you have found a reliable source for display and storage products, the rewards will be well worth your time and effort.


https://postalmuseum.si.edu/choosing-safe-plastics
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Valued Member
Netherlands
11 Posts
Posted 09/30/2022   12:00 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Fenrik07 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Okay, I have just sent a request to Lindner for more information about the experts they mentioned say that their plastic is safe.
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Valued Member
Netherlands
11 Posts
Posted 10/04/2022   04:21 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Fenrik07 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Okay, I've received this response from Lindner:

'Good day,

Thank you for your message and your interest in our products.
There are countless opinions about the best options. However, we can speak from decades of experience and assure you that our rigid PVC film is ideally suited for secure archiving. The rigid PVC film covers are free of acids and plasticizers.'
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Posted 10/04/2022   05:10 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Wonder if they will share their accelerated aging testing results with you. LOL

Lest we not forget that H. E. Harris made similar claims about the archival properties of their infamous Crystal Mounts. "It will not shrink, warp, discolor or deteriorate, and is completely non-injurious to stamps."

Here is how I think this works with our hobby suppliers. They do NO actual testing; history has shown us that they simply 'target' the buying of raw materials which they are told by their suppliers are 'archival'. I believe that they try to make products they can market as archival, but they do no testing because it is costly to do themselves or to outsource to a decent testing company. So what they sell is honestly described as 'we TRY to make our products archival and HOPE no one has any issues anytime in the future'.

I am quite sure that if any of our hobby suppliers spent the time and money on actual accelerated aging testing, they would be touting this in their advertising. (As well they should since it would make them be a leader and stand out in the sea of competing products.) But of course, this testing would also drive up the cost and I assume that this is why they do no testing and are willing to risk ruining OUR philatelic material over time.

H.E. Harris did not go out of business when Crystal Mounts were found to be harmful and ruining countless numbers of collections. Nor did they, or anyone other hobby suppliers, learn any lessons and start doing accelerated aging testing. Instead, they just stayed the course of making archival claims and hobbyists just keep buying their products and relying that their claims are good enough.

Note how the Postal Museum (rogdcam's quote above) basically tells us to test the products ourselves. LOL

Quote:
Before selecting a plastic enclosure, ask for some samples or order a small quantity. Experiment. Find the product that will work best with your personal collecting needs. Once you have found a reliable source for display and storage products, the rewards will be well worth your time and effort.

Gee, that is quite reassuring. They assume that all hobbyists can do accelerated aging testing correctly? LOL
Don
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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
2126 Posts
Posted 10/04/2022   05:54 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
They assume that all hobbyists can do accelerated aging testing correctly?


So, should I bake my Lindner T pages for a few ours in the oven at 180 C before inserting my block of 10 unmounted mint penny blacks?
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Edited by NSK - 10/04/2022 05:56 am
Valued Member
Netherlands
11 Posts
Posted 10/04/2022   06:10 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Fenrik07 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Oh well, it's not like I have very valuable material that isn't widely available. For now I'm trusting it won't immediately ruin my stamps. (Judging by other people's experiences) After all, regular stock books also aren't really meant to house stamps forever since the glassine will yellow over time and become able to damage the stamps. Guess albums are the same in that you need to move stamps over to a different one over time. Slightly disappointing for the price paid though. You'd typically want something safe to house the stamps in for as long as the paper doesn't completely degrade naturally, though I suppose after I die I won't really know what people will do with it.
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Posted 10/04/2022   06:44 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add angore to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Polypropylene is similar to polyester film in clarity. It is also used as sleeves for storing photographs, papers and philatelic material. The museum often uses polypropylene page protectors for album pages when rehousing a collection.


This appears to state that the NPM endorses protective sleeves,

If I wanted to age something, I would subject to sunlight/humidity changes and temperatures - Florida! In my prior job, the company had a corporate standard for accelerated cycling aging test (was called 4-4-16 but forget details) for materials. This was used by our component engineering support lab to qualify materials.
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Al
Edited by angore - 10/04/2022 06:56 am
Valued Member
Netherlands
11 Posts
Posted 10/04/2022   11:39 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Fenrik07 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The albums just arrived, and overall I'm pleased with the quality. If I didn't know it was PVC I'd have thought the plastic used is PP, it feels similar to that. Other than that the quality of the printed pictures is quite strange. Some are very heavy with ink while others are barely visible. There were also some very small glue stains on some of the pages. Besides that I'm happy.
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Valued Member
Netherlands
84 Posts
Posted 10/04/2022   1:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Northwinds to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Congrats Fenrik! Your Reich collection will look very good on those pages. I use Lindner myself for a few countries and am very pleased with their albums and pages. Perfect? No. But for me close enough.

Peter
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Edited by Northwinds - 10/04/2022 1:02 pm
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