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Proposed Merger Of The APS And Asda

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Posted 10/05/2022   09:11 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This seems to boil down to merging two entities that have been utterly ineffective and impotent when it comes to making the philatelic marketplace safer.

Both have existed throughout the age of internet sales and yet Ray Charles can plainly see that purchasing online is very much an activity fraught with risk.

Before the APS would even think the first wisp of a thought about doing a deal such as this it would behoove it to study any value to the collector's community.

What is the history of impactful positive changes to the eBay and HipStamp purchasing environment? Specifics with data showing effectiveness please. Give actual examples of either organization being proactive in getting any of the seller offenders on these platforms shut down. Has either organization ever taken on the vast fraud of the cartel/Philip Ryle? Does either organization have a working fraud prevention relationship with eBay, the largest philatelic marketplace in the World?

The main problem in the marketplaces is not sellers that have paid dues and agree to abide by a code of ethics (whether they all do so is another topic) but the thousands of sellers that have no interest in abiding by anything.

So the "good guys" pay to be members because they already have ethics and the "not so good guys" that are ethically challenged to begin with do not become members. And the new APS/ASDA deals with the non-members how?


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Posted 10/05/2022   09:49 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add centerstage98 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
In response to:

The main problem in the marketplaces is not sellers that have paid dues and agree to abide by a code of ethics (whether they all do so is another topic) but the thousands of sellers that have no interest in abiding by anything.

So the "good guys" pay to be members because they already have ethics and the "not so good guys" that are ethically challenged to begin with do not become members. And the new APS/ASDA deals with the non-members how?


A prime benefit to belonging to the APS is that it has a Code of Ethics for its members, which include sellers (whether they be professional dealers or just Everyday Collectors).

If there is a problem with a sale, there is a complaint procedure. THAT is what makes buying or selling from/to members and member-dealers so valuable.

If I buy a fake from a non-APS dealer on eBay I have no recourse - lesson learned; but there is recourse when buying from an APS member-dealer.

ALSO - there is NO merger between HipStamp and the APS. Consider the APS StampStore as ONE dealer with a whole lot of material who puts all their stuff up on HipStamp. It allows a whole lot more exposure to ALL those items; HipStamp does not receive a percentage.
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Posted 10/05/2022   11:00 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add m and m to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Wed, Oct 5 at 7:29 AM


lmo ASDA is a sinking ship........they no longer command the prestige they once enjoyed,,,,,for whatever reason.
i cannot see where this proposal will benefit either the APS members or the hobby,which has is and will continue to evolve in the future if we do not stick our heads in the sand, lets work to come up with some useful practicable ideas and implement them if we want to continue to have a say in a viable hobby,
this proposal is not one of them,
while I do trust the board of the APs to make choices for the benefit of the members,i repeat this proposal is not one of them and should be subject to a member vote, and include an escape clause if carried out.
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Edited by m and m - 10/05/2022 11:01 am
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Posted 10/05/2022   1:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If I buy a fake from a non-APS dealer on eBay I have no recourse - lesson learned; but there is recourse when buying from an APS member-dealer.


Well, problem solved for 26,000 collectors.


Quote:
ALSO - there is NO merger between HipStamp and the APS. Consider the APS StampStore as ONE dealer with a whole lot of material who puts all their stuff up on HipStamp. It allows a whole lot more exposure to ALL those items; HipStamp does not receive a percentage.


I hardly think that the relationship is entirely altruistic and run of the mill given the fanfare and scope of the arrangement.
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Posted 10/05/2022   2:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mainer to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
With the caveat that I'm too much of a novice collector for my opinion to be taken too seriously on this, mergers and acquisitions almost always make me nervous. I'm also new to the APS but I too wonder why I'm learning about this here - maybe I'm just not familiar enough with the info channels available to me.

But my biggest concern would be the mixing of (possibly incompatible?) roles. To me this is like the SEC and the NYSE merging. I think of the APS as the domain of collectors and to be focused on standards, building expertising knowledge, quality control, and rules of the road. The ASDA has a separate focus on dealer/seller issues, perhaps policing within that group.
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Edited by Mainer - 10/05/2022 5:07 pm
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Posted 10/05/2022   3:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Oracle of Delphi to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I've had a few occasions to try to deal with the ASDA over dealer issues - never even got a response. Admittedly a small statistically insignificant sample, but based on my experience, the policing within the ASDA is nonexistent. This was over ten years subscribing to their magazine and I'm still registered on their website. Others' experiences might be different.
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Posted 10/05/2022   3:37 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Anthony's is still an ASDA member.
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Posted 10/05/2022   4:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add uboatnut to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I would likely drop my APS membership were it not for the fact that I must be an APS member in order insure my collection with Hugh Wood.
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Posted 10/05/2022   4:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Oracle of Delphi to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
As an APS member for a while, maybe I've missed some announcements or invitations for members to comment on the proposed mergers/coordinations, but I feel that the APS should at least present their analysis of/case for these steps and solicit members' views, input, concerns etc. before proceeding. Even if the director and board members are in the best position to evaluate and ultimately make the final decision. Our dues after all constitute a goodly portion of the APS' revenue and without us, the organization wouldn't exist. Was there some opportunity to do this in either the APS/HipStamp or the APS/ ASDA processes that I missed?
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Posted 10/05/2022   7:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ScottEnglish to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Was there some opportunity to do this in either the APS/HipStamp or the APS/ ASDA processes that I missed?


Working with HipStamp is a partnership along the lines of any number we engage in over time. I've seen people incorrectly assert it's a merger, but it's a marketing partnership.

As for APS/ASDA, earlier in the thread, I stated this is far from a concluded issue. It's public for precisely the reason of soliciting feedback from members and others.

As for the announcement, the APS posted the news story publicly on Monday morning. Noble Spirit included the announcement in their newsletter later that day with a link back to the APS website. No one broke the news; we announced it. As I said to OP directly, I understand people don't visit our website daily for news, though we update daily. Thankfully, others in the hobby use these stories in newsletters of all types.

In candor, our goal is to generate traffic to the site of members and non-members, which we do. So it's going to take a bit of work to scoop us on our own news. But I'm grateful to those who find the information valuable enough to share.

I have been reading the thread and appreciate the feedback folks have offered on the discussion.
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Posted 10/05/2022   8:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Cephus to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
To paraphrase the mission statements
The APS mission is to promote and support hobbyists.
The ASDA Mission is to promote and support those who make money on hobbyists.

At the least I would imagine that the two organizations have very different cultures and perspectives.


I could see ways that it could work, at least in theory. Hobbyists need someone to buy stamps from, if all of the dealers and auction houses and sellers on the planet went away, what would we do? I can see it working as a means to compete with eBay and Hipstamp, etc., by taking all of the ASDA dealers and making their collective catalogs available through stampstore. Granted, eBay has been stepping up lately to directly support philately, such as their work with Stampex, but we also know that there are a ton of ethical concerns with eBay sellers. Hardly a day goes by that I don't see complaints about fake and misidentified stamps there. Perhaps the only way to really guarantee a solid, safe buying experience is to force all dealers to be part of and/or abide by the rules of the ASDA. I just hope that the APS standards would win out because I too have some concerns over how the ASDA has behaved. Bringing the ASDA up to APS standards would be great. The other way, not so much.

Just spitballing.
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Posted 10/05/2022   9:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This is one of numerous past topics regarding the ASDA:

http://goscf.com/t/62022&whichpage=1

Note: The dealer in question is currently listed on the ASDA website.
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Posted 10/05/2022   11:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essay_proof to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
rodgcam wrote: "What is the history of impactful positive changes to the eBay and HipStamp purchasing environment? Specifics with data showing effectiveness please. Give actual examples of either organization being proactive in getting any of the seller offenders on these platforms shut down."

I'll tell you a story without naming names.

Many of you may be familiar with the fairly recent spate of fake US essays and foreign stamps with fake overprints listed on eBay by several sellers. I'm experienced enough with US essays to be able to spot a fake from space, but when in question I consult with one of my 'oracles' (certain dealers and more knowledgeable collectors). Most of the essays in the first volley of listings were blatant fakes, but many of them were cleverly conceived. It would have taken a real specialist to decide what to fake and how to present them.

A more recent round of listings included a few items that were really quite dangerous. I reported a few of these to eBay, with zero response.

When this second round of listings appeard, I consulted with one of my oracles to ask what he thought of a particular item. He kind of laughed at what he saw and said he would make a phone call. I got off the phone wondering who he might be calling.

A few minutes later, all of the fake US items from the most egregious of these sellers disappeared.

The moral of the story: it shouldn't take all this happenstance to remedy the situation. Just how bad was the situation? I'm glad you asked...

By my tally (yes, I made a tally), some 200 people spent somewhere between $6K and $7K on fake US essays.

So as I alluded to in my previous post, eBay would need to bankroll specialist philatlelists to help protect buyers both pre- and post-sale. That's probably a pipe dream, but I don't see how such buyer protection could be accomplished with half measures.
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Edited by essay_proof - 10/05/2022 11:27 pm
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Posted 10/06/2022   06:57 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add angore to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
If APS is after ASDA show management skills, why not just outsource show management to ASDA since the dealers cover much of the cost of the show. anyway. APS can pay for their use of the space as well but then I do not think APS would like that arrangement.

I am afraid the APS ethics standards could be reduced despite promises otherwise.

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Al
Edited by angore - 10/06/2022 06:59 am
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Posted 10/06/2022   09:16 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mainer to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
This is one of numerous past topics regarding the ASDA:

http://goscf.com/t/62022&whichpage=1

Note: The dealer in question is currently listed on the ASDA website.


I went and read that thread - ugh! How disappointing. I guessed that ASDA maybe wasn't exactly a "gold standard" but I used it when making some purchases on eBay. You know, like a "UL" seal on an appliance.

Oh well...now I'm going to see if I can change my username to "naive" or "babeinthewoods"
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