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Sideways (Vertical) Watermarks

 
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Valued Member

United States
23 Posts
Posted 11/29/2022   9:03 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add EFO_collector to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I read an article not too long ago that said some Australian stamps with vertical watermarks were much rarer than both normal and inverted watermarks.

It had something to do with the orientation of the device that caused watermarks, and the bulk sheet of paper's shape.

While I could be wrong, I don't believe that's the case for US stamps.

I'd be curious to know if many others have such stamps.

Here's a 5-shilling Queensland stamp with a vertical watermark.


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Edited by EFO_collector - 11/29/2022 9:11 pm

Valued Member
United States
23 Posts
Posted 11/29/2022   9:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add EFO_collector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here's another one of a swan with a sideways watermark, compared to one with a normal upright watermark.



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Bedrock Of The Community
Australia
37531 Posts
Posted 11/29/2022   9:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Here's a 5-shilling Queensland stamp with a vertical watermark.


Would that not be sideways?


Quote:
Here's another one of a swan with a sideways watermark, compared to one with a normal upright watermark.


Are you sure?
Can you identify the stamps first, before presentation?

I believe these were printed on Victorian paper,
Standard position sideways head to tail

Upright watermark is the anomaly

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Edited by rod222 - 11/29/2022 9:38 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
2383 Posts
Posted 11/30/2022   02:19 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Not familiar with Australian stamps, but the basics behind it will not be much different.

There may be various reasons for sideways watermarks (what you appear to call vertical).

1. Stamps, in the early days, had standard sizes. Many stamps were oblong vertically. Stamps that were oblong horizontally had the same dimensions and those stamps were printed sideways in the sheet. So, technically, it is not the watermark that is sideways, but the stamps.

2. Stamps intended for stamp-affixing machines (or vending machines) required horizontal delivery. If the stamps were printed in horizontal reels, it was more efficient - both for paste-up formats and continuous rolls) to print the stamps sideways, so the longer strips of stamps would be joined at the sides.

Stamps only, or primarily printed for rolls with horizontal (sideways) delivery may only exist, or be more common with a sideways watermark.

Many inverted watermarks have an origin similar to 2. In booklet making, you can print two adjoining columns of stamps with each pair being separated by a gutter from the next. Cutting the gutter in the middle and splitting between the panes would give you strips of booklet panes with margins always to the same side of the pane when the stamp was in the upright position. This would mean part of the stamps would have the watermark inverted.

Where single sheet fed printing presses were used, a sheet may have been fed upside down, turned around, or both. This would give rise to inverted, reversed, or inverted and reversed watermarks and are errors.
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Valued Member
United States
23 Posts
Posted 11/30/2022   12:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add EFO_collector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The Queensland stamp is Scott #76 (1882, A5), perf 12, Carmen rose; and it says the "wmk. 68 twice sideways." Does that mean the watermark is printed sequentially twice, and always sideways?



I believe that the Western Australian one with the sideways watermark is Scott #90 (1899), watermark #13. I don't see any reference to it being sideways.



I'm newer to collecting (about a year), so appreciate any insight—if you think something is worth getting authenticated.

Here's another one that's a little unusual:
New South Wales, perf 12x11, Scott # 65F (1860), forest green. It shows the typical NSW watermark in a normal horizontal way, but then there appears to be large outlined letters underneath the watermark. Any additional thoughts would be appreciated.







Also, does an "official services" (OS) perfin make a sideways watermark more valuable (worth authentication), or not since they're used? I've got a couple of them, too.
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United States
591 Posts
Posted 11/30/2022   1:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Linus to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
British Colonies stamps were printed on sheets of paper with edge words in large-outlined letters. Check out the link below where we talked about edge watermark letters. Although not exactly your NSW stamp, the method is the same, used throughout the colonies:

http://goscf.com/t/68695

Hope this helps,

Linus

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United States
4127 Posts
Posted 11/30/2022   2:05 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Partime to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The Queensland stamp is Scott #76 (1882, A5), perf 12, Carmen rose; and it says the "wmk. 68 twice sideways." Does that mean the watermark is printed sequentially twice, and always sideways?

Answer: Yes, but unsure if printed sequentially twice or done twice in some other fashion. I would hazard a guess that the second is very tough to see (as you can verify from the illustration that you provided.) Stanley Gibbons has similar comments.
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United States
4127 Posts
Posted 11/30/2022   2:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Partime to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I believe that the Western Australian one with the sideways watermark is Scott #90 (1899), watermark #13. I don't see any reference to it being sideways.

Stanley Gibbons shows that this stamp is normally watermark sideways with watermark Crown to right of CA when viewed from the front. If it was the other direction, it has a higher value.
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Valued Member
United States
23 Posts
Posted 11/30/2022   2:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add EFO_collector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Is Stanley Gibbons a catalog like Scott's? Is there a searchable digital version?
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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
2383 Posts
Posted 11/30/2022   2:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Stanley Gibbons is a stamp dealer from England, one of the biggest in the world.
It publishes catalogues. Their catalogues are the standard for Great Britain and Commonwealth countries.

They publish worldwide, commonwealth, regional and Great Britain catalogues. The latter, they also do at a specialised level.

They do sell most of their catalogues both as printed and digital catalogues.

Canada and Australia will also have their specialised catalogues.
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Edited by NSK - 11/30/2022 2:33 pm
Valued Member
United States
23 Posts
Posted 11/30/2022   5:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add EFO_collector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
There's a lot of good info here, and I really appreciate all of you taking the time to answer some of my questions.

One more about the Gibbons Catalogue: Does it mention stamp values relative to watermark orientation?

Scott's catalog lists values for stamps missing watermarks but not sure if the orientation is different, which I understand can be quite a commodity in Australia.

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Bedrock Of The Community
Australia
37531 Posts
Posted 11/30/2022   7:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Tip: It is ALWAYS good practice to firstly identify (as best possible) any stamp that is requiring ID
Value, colour , perforation guaging. paper? thick thin etc

Eg Poor information in, poor information given.

Maybe this can assist, Mogens Juhl Catalogue 1992
isbn 0959375244

PS: Handling your stamps with tongs


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Edited by rod222 - 11/30/2022 7:57 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
2383 Posts
Posted 12/01/2022   01:11 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Not all SG catalogues mention watermark varieties at the level above. They do mention intended sideways and upright watermarks, but not the sideways with the crown pointing either way.
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9496 Posts
Posted 12/01/2022   08:15 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
While I could be wrong, I don't believe that's the case for US stamps.


The link below gives you an idea of the scope of watermark varieties for just one issue, the 1898 1¢ Franklin (Scott #279).

https://stampauctionnetwork.com/art...20update.pdf
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Posted 12/01/2022   08:21 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
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