Double Paper And The 12c

Let me start by saying that I know the 12c does not have a double paper variety listed. And I'm only learning about it myself using StampSmarter and this wonderful thread which is full of information.
https://www.stampcommunity.org/topi...PIC_ID=39059

That being said, I would like to simply ask about this piece. I am not implying that I have one, but only learned about "double paper" when trying to figure out what's going on with this one.
Here is the full front and back:




With hard paper, you can usually see a nice impression of the front on the reverse as well. When held up to a light, the design elements are crisp on white, translucent paper. This piece is much different, showing no imprint and the details are muddied by a fuzzy, cloth-like nature.
I'll use a 166 and other hard types for comparison purposes in this thread.

You can see how the edges all the way around the 12c are white and translucent just like the torn areas (especially apparent at the bottom-right corner).
This is different from the 90c which has uniformity in translucence, signifying one solid piece.




Here is a close-up of the texture:



And here is the 166 compared to the 12c in the same light and position:





More comparisons with hard types. The final picture shows how the edges thin out like soft paper and appear to wrap under, rather than abruptly stop. It seems like the layer can be pulled right off, but I'm afraid to try that. The paper is very soft and delicate.

I brought up a "double paper" theory because it looks very similar how the paper is shown in this example:



Thank you as always. And Happy New Year!

Your 12 cent still has paper from the envelope it was ripped from on the back. Soak it and see the difference when the envelope junk falls away.

Thank you for the comment as always rogdcam! I think that is false for obvious technical reasons, but I'll wait for others to chime in as well if they wish to.

No expert on this issue, by any means. However, I'm just seeing a very damaged stamp that a soaking could help to uncover some issues.

In the book, "The Papers and Gums of the United States Postage Stamps, 1847-1909", RH White made a comment about some of the National printings of 1870. One was a picture with the caption, "A clear picture of the internal paper matrix - the result of fiber transfer from an adjacent sheet adhering to moist gum." Perhaps the double-paper you are seeing is the result of pulling two sheets apart and what was left after that effort?

Just looks like thick paper with some thin spots to me. Thin spots are often identified by holding the stamp up to the light. More light coming through in some spots = thin.

And what would those "technical reasons" be?

The 166 looks likely to be a 191 - soft porous paper

Stephen,

If it's double paper and has not been altered by someone, you will be able to split it a bit to show the variety. Rather than put forward unconvincing arguments about translucency differences, which could merely demonstrate thinning, show us the splitting into layers.

For the double paper of 1875 and following here is a nice discussion from quite a while ago on this list:
https://www.stampcommunity.org/topi...IC_ID=39059u

The patent specifications for double paper call for papers of two distinct qualities, one somewhat thicker than the other. In practice, the layer thicknesses vary a bit and are not as radically different as the specifications might lead one to expect.

Oops! Hadn't noticed that the list discussion I referenced is the same one as was used by the questioner. Since it does cover the basics, and in the interest of giving just a bit more background, let me reference a recent page from one of my exhibits. It gives info and examples for double paper as it was originally conceived and what it later became:




I wanted you to see this page because of the 15c 1875 print. This item has been certified and if it is not the only known example it is one of very few. It has been split in one corner to show the variety. Any 12c would be in the same class, and would similarly need to be partially split to nail that down.

It's a completely reasonable observation, and what I thought at first.
But if one were to retain this much of the envelope paper while pulling it off, it would be physically impossibile to do it in such a way where even the perforated edges align immaculately with that of the stamp's. And if you look closely, the matted texture and thickness of the paper remain consistent even until the ends of each rounded perf.

Furthermore, both sides of the paper slope neatly into each other at the ends, signifying that it was cut this way from the beginning.

Paper torn from an envelope and retained on a stamp would show inconsistencies in texture, thickness, shape etc. Much like this piece:

I would absolutely agree with this if the paper wasn't so soft, and dark under UV lighting. Doesn't feel like hard paper at all. Could be some strange chemical reaction that made the back puffier, but from what I've read hard paper isn't supposed to tear like this.


I thought the same at first, but I believe it may be the "intermediate" type of hard paper that also bears a weave. This one is exceedingly stiff, kind of like a plaster. The front design is also neatly pressed through to the reverse, and shows a blast white color under UV lighting.

Here is another example with a fresh #134 h grill from 1870 that also shows a weave pattern. Soft paper was not used for banknotes during this time:

An incredible collection of both information and stamps! Thank you essayk! And congrats on finding that 15c piece.

Actually, I was giving many arguments on here in hopes that I wouldn't have to try and peel something back! Haha. I am not experienced or confident in this area, but maybe I can find some 3c DPs in the back that I can practice on before doing it for the first time on something that potentially may be unique.
Or I'll take your previous advice and just add it to my bulk submission list for that nice discount.

Again, thank you for the comments everyone.

If you think it is a double paper send it in for a cert, contact me and I will unlock this thread.
Don