Stamp Community Family of Web Sites
Thousands of stamps, consistently graded, competitively priced and hundreds of in-depth blog posts to read
Stamp Community Forum
 
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.
Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some stamps?
Our stamp forum is completely free! Register Now!

Stumped, #448 With 191 Watermark What Is This?

 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 7 / Views: 340Next Topic  
Valued Member

United States
66 Posts
Posted 01/14/2023   09:40 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add waynezach to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
#448 with 191 WMK ?? Perf 10. Measures as flat plate printing, I'm confused! The yellow photo shows upside down wmk 191. Lower perfs look a little cleaner than the top perfs, If it's fraudulent, what stamp with the 191 WMK was it cut from? If it's real, what is it?
Thanks! This ones got me stumped!



Send note to Staff

Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
1521 Posts
Posted 01/14/2023   10:13 am  Show Profile Check rlsny's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add rlsny to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I can't tell if it is flat or rotary, but 441 is the flat plate version of the perfs 10 horizontal coil with watermark
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
66 Posts
Posted 01/14/2023   10:52 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add waynezach to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It's Flat Plate. Image measures 18.5mm wide x 22mm tall.
Doesn't the 441 have a 190 watermark? My stamp has a 191 watermark.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
66 Posts
Posted 01/14/2023   11:02 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add waynezach to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It could be plate position 23 (wmk 190) looks like a D, but that does not explain the upside down U watermark (191).
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
66 Posts
Posted 01/14/2023   11:09 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add waynezach to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Solved. I watermarked it again and the D shows up very clearly. I can barley see the U. I don't know what the u image is, but it does appear to be 441 plate position 23.
Thanks!
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
4905 Posts
Posted 01/14/2023   11:49 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The ghosted double line U? watermark is quite quizzical especially since it never appeared on the 1 cent Washington stamp of this design, not to mention the apparent head-to-tail pairing of two letters. I would attribute it to some sort of contact contamination from its environment over the past century and move on to the other facets.


Yes, I agree, this is the real watermark, an upside down "P" with a weak leg extending upward.


With regard to "plate position 43": Scott's diagram of a pane showing watermark 190 is only representative to show how approximately 90 letters can spread randomly across 100 definitive-sized stamps and shift from position to position. A stamp may have a portion of the USPS watermark resembling "Scott diagram position xx", but this would not have any correlation to an actual plate position. The paper could also be fed upside down, reversed, etc., as your stamp is down compared to the Scott diagram.


Then it gets down to whether you have a genuine coil of something trimmed down. You state it is flat plate, which would point toward Scott 441, rather than the rotary 448, as the thread developed, unless I missed something in your data.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by John Becker - 01/14/2023 11:50 am
Valued Member
United States
66 Posts
Posted 01/14/2023   12:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add waynezach to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks John! It appears to be a 441 as risny first suggested. I think what threw me is the Ghost U watermark. I am still stumped on how a watermark could ever transfer from one stamp to another even after 100 years.
I'll place this one in that special stock book to research another day.
Thanks again!
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
4905 Posts
Posted 01/14/2023   12:50 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
A watermark will not transfer from one stamp to another.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
  Previous TopicReplies: 7 / Views: 340Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.


Go to Top of Page
Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Stamp Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2023 Stamp Community Family - All rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Stamp Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Privacy Policy / Terms of Use    Advertise Here
Stamp Community Forum © 2007 - 2023 Stamp Community Forums
It took 0.14 seconds to lick this stamp. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05