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Looking For Information From Editions Of Speciale Catalogus (Netherlands Specialized Catalogue)

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 12 / Views: 306Next Topic  
Valued Member
United States
120 Posts
Posted 02/19/2023   8:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add bmbmbm to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi,

NVPH has published special chapters on postmarks in some relatively recently editions (last 12 years) of their catalogue, but the chapters usually only appear that year, and not since.

I would really like to see those chapters, so please send me a private message if you have any of the editions I am looking for, and are willing to share scans or pictures with me. We can work something out for your time (trading information/stamps/payment).

Yes, I have checked the APRL and RPSL, but they are pretty sparse on editions from the last 12 years. They have scanning services, but they can't scan them if they don't have them. I've checked some other places as well, but Speciale Catalogus editions must not make it over to the USA very often. Our public libraries don't seem to have them, so Inter-Library Loan doesn't seem like an option either. I don't need the full (heavy) book, just a chapter.

I am currently looking for a chapter from the following editions:
2011-Kortebalk- en Langebalk stempels met arcering
2012-Langebalk stempels met Arabische maandcijfers
2014-Kortebalkstempels met 12-uurs karakters
2015-Kortebalkstempels met 24-uurs karakters
2016-Kleinrond stempels

Thank you to anyone who can help me!
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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
3004 Posts
Posted 02/20/2023   01:11 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The 2015 one is some 2 pages of introduction followed by 50 pages of listing (type, office, start period of use, end period of use, price - mostly 1.50), and copyright protected.
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Valued Member
United States
120 Posts
Posted 02/20/2023   02:19 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bmbmbm to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
OK, but isn't sharing allowed under copyright if:
-it's for research for a non-commercial purpose or private study
-it's not a substantial portion of the work (52 pages out of a 900 page book doesn't seem to be a substantial portion?)

Please correct me if I don't understand it correctly!
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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
3004 Posts
Posted 02/20/2023   04:27 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
What proportion it is is irrelevant. Copyright notice, normally, reads "nothing in this publication ... ."
Research? Even scientific institutions are not allowed to copy and distribute to students at will. Catalogue publishers do not publish catalogues so one collector can buy one and share it so the whole local philatelic society can research what his or her collection's catalogue value is. So, it will depend on what you call research.
Much of the information also is available from a website, just not priced. But with illustrations.
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Edited by NSK - 02/20/2023 04:27 am
Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
3004 Posts
Posted 02/20/2023   04:50 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Try this site

http://poststempels.nedacademievoorfilatelie.nl/

You might find all you are looking for.

Example:
http://poststempels.nedacademievoor...m-Elburg.pdf

The first entry on this page is 'ECHT 2'


Note this lists 'ECHT 3' as well.

Here is a detail from the 2015 NVPH supplement



You, only, miss the 1.50 catalogue price.
The website is more detailed and illustrated.
Note also the 10-day difference in first day of use.
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Edited by NSK - 02/20/2023 04:51 am
Valued Member
United States
120 Posts
Posted 02/20/2023   05:25 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bmbmbm to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
OK, Thank you for the information NSK. I appreciate it.

Back with copyright though, I would like to understand more:
I thought I had seen language in copyright law that talks about how proportion affects whether it falls under "fair use" or not.

I understand what you are saying, though I thought I've read about exemptions for universities/libraries (portions, not full works, for educational use), as well as the exemption points I previously mentioned, and others. At least the APRL and RPSL seem to be able to provide scans of portions of works, under exemptions.

I understand what you are saying about the whole local philatelic society, but isn't that exactly what happens when a local philatelic society buys the catalogue for their library, so the whole group of members can "share it" and use it to learn about their collections' catalogue value?
Just a counterpoint I thought of, not trying to be difficult or anything. Hopefully this conversation can help me learn more about how these things work.

I realize this might be more USA law-centered, maybe Dutch/EU copyright law is not too different? I don't know, and terminology might be different.


I am interested in catalogue pricing as well. I'd even be happy with a rarity/scarcity rating if that existed, and don't care if the information is 7-8 years old now. I was trying to find the information from people, as I found it frustrating that I couldn't find these catalogues in our libraries (so couldn't check them out), and even the philatelic libraries don't have them.
Regarding buying them: shipping is expensive to the USA for a 900 page book, on top of the cost of the book itself, so who has the money to spend on 5 of them, when I'm only interested in ~5% of the material (52/900= 5.7%) or less (all the other chapters I'm interested in are less than 52 pages long).

If only all these chapters were together in 1 catalogue, I'd be very interested in purchasing one. The "Specialiteiten Catalogus" seem similar to this, but the latest edition (2014-2015ish) seem to include none of these topics. Buying a single catalogue would be whole lot easier than trying to piece-meal it together from different sources.
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Edited by bmbmbm - 02/20/2023 05:25 am
Pillar Of The Community
United Kingdom
7278 Posts
Posted 02/20/2023   05:35 am  Show Profile Check GeoffHa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GeoffHa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
As a layman, I shouldn't regard copying fifty pages of a recently published book that I hadn't purchased as "fair use".

Adding a chapter on a specific issue is a practice for various catalogue publishers - it's a legitimate incentive to a prospective purchaser. I see the irksomeness, of course.
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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
3004 Posts
Posted 02/20/2023   05:50 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with GeoffHa.

These are one-off supplements. So, I doubt you will find an NVPH issue that lists them all.

A few years ago, we had a problem with universities copying books for students. The books were in short supply and students had no access to them.
In the end, a deal was done.

You are allowed to copy for private use. The price of a smartphone or laptop even includes a small charge to buy of the copyright.
I am not sure how it works with libraries, but I expect a library may not send you a copy even of part of a book, unless copyright has been bought off or permission has been received.

Looking at the two pages that include 'ECHT 2', there are ca. 140 listings, a dozen are not priced 1.50. All but 3 or 4 of the differently priced are 4 ot 5.
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Edited by NSK - 02/20/2023 05:54 am
Valued Member
United States
120 Posts
Posted 02/20/2023   06:37 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bmbmbm to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, GeoffHa, I understand that. And I would purchase the chapters if I could. I just don't want the other 850 pages. Hence my reference to Specialeititen Catalogus.

Maybe I'm all wet or something, but one-off sections seems like the wrong business model for a catalogue publisher. There's probably details I'm missing though, that change the economics of the situation.

As far as I've seen in my limited knowledge, these priced chapters seem like "new" information. As such, it seems the barrier to entry into the field should be low to encourage interest. Barriers being accessibility/cost. If people can get the information more easily, this spurs greater interest, and in turn greater demand. Greater demand means prices increase (assuming supply is constant), which gives catalogue publishers the ability to publish the next edition with higher prices. Dealers and collectors in the field's market then have a desire to buy the latest catalogue to get the latest prices and stay up on what they're selling. Increased availability of information, as well as material in the market can then attract further interest, and get more people collecting the field, creating a positive feedback loop that helps the publishers through increased sales.

I did take a Microeconomics class in college, so I realize it's not exactly that simple, and there's always a multitude of factors that can affect the model.

It just seems like one-off chapters are relatively pointless. Like trying to start a fire, but not providing enough fuel and oxygen. Just one more information barrier I've ran into that the hobby does not need, especially when trying to get and keep younger people interested in the hobby. I should know, I am one. I am 24 years old, and I don't personally know anyone else my age who collects stamps.
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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
3004 Posts
Posted 02/20/2023   07:01 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I suggest you use the PM for questions on specific 'Korte balk' cancellations.

With most people being perfectly happy buying the catalogue every ten or twenty years, NVPH had a nice scheme going. But your hesitation to buy the whole set just for the supplements suggests even specialists may decide it is not worth it.

I am not too sure about these priced chapters being new information. In this case, I would argue the 'Nederlandse Academie voor Filatelie' did all but provide you with catalogue prices to promote the hobby and make information accessible for you. - Or they forgot to add a password and ask for a membership fee. - Their listing is not just more extensive, but also illustrated. I would not call eight years old catalogue prices 'new' information. And if you search SCF on opinions on catalogue prices, many might argue those prices are disinformation.
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Valued Member
United States
120 Posts
Posted 02/20/2023   3:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bmbmbm to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for all your replies, NSK. I do appreciate them.
Can you explain what the PM is that you refer to?

Yes, I agree with you about NVPH's "scheme", though I might argue it wouldn't just apply to them. It would also apply to other catalogue publishers who try to do the same kind of thing.

Yes, I see they did provide the technical information. That's very good, though it seems that it only serves the technical philatelist, instead of supporting the market. To encourage market activity in the field, you need people buying/selling/trading material, which seems unlikely to happen if they have no idea of value/scarcity of what they have.

That's why I indicated it seemed like "new" information. Even though it's 7 year old information now, it seemed new in the sense that it hadn't been published before. I wasn't sure if it ever appeared in any small, privately-published books or pamphlets that sometimes are printed before information makes it into full catalogues. I hadn't found any indication of that though, but I'd probably need to know the right Dutch words to search find any mention of it online.

The thing is, if they did put the prices online, behind a reasonably-priced subscription, after ceasing to put it in their catalogue, I'd seriously consider subscribing to access it.

Regarding your comment on pricing disinformation: I understand what you mean, but pricing still can be an indicator of relative scarcity, and give the market a backbone to build off from. Collectors and dealers can use the prices as indicator, but still adjust what they charge or pay based on condition, availability, personal experience on how hard something is to find....as they do with mainstream catalogue prices.

I suppose I'm a little sensitive about barriers to information, due to discovering how fragile philatelic information can be, even in this age of the Internet.

Some examples being 3 books I've been trying to source over the last couple months on Algerian, Morocco, and Tunisian postmarks. There are very few references to them online, let alone finding a copy for sale. The Algerian one was easiest. There was an eBay listing (more expensive), and a French dealer's website (cheaper). French dealer never responded to my messages about shipping costs, so eBay won. Morocco book was OK, but is still in process. No copies are for sale anywhere, so I contacted the author, and he had no copies left to sell. He did offer to make a copy of his personal book for a price, which I agreed to. He "lost" his PDF file of the book.....
The Tunisian one is proving the hardest, and is still in process too. Copies are not to be found anywhere, and contacting the author did not work (he might have died). One person I contacted had a copy he made of the book the author had loaned him, and so I guess getting a copy of the copy is the only option.

And that's not the only one I've ran into either. I was looking for a while for a book on Ceylon postmarks, and couldn't find a copy anywhere online. I ended up getting it from a retired dealer in the UK who had it within a philatelic library he had disposed of a 4-5 years ago, but that did not all sell. I only found it because Google found the title in a PDF of an old list of the books for sale. The dealer had to take a while to dig it out of the boxes of books he had packed away.
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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
3004 Posts
Posted 02/20/2023   4:08 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
PM is the personal message possibility.

Finding good information on overprints on British stamps, such as for the Morocco Agencies is like what you describe for those cancellations. The books that exist are nowhere to be found.
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Edited by NSK - 02/20/2023 4:11 pm
Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 02/20/2023   4:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
-it's not a substantial portion of the work (52 pages out of a 900 page book doesn't seem to be a substantial portion?)


Clearly, copyright laws vary by country, however 52 pages of any-sized work seems unfair use. And especially when it is a stand-alone chapter.
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