Scott 38 — 30¢ 1860. Legit?

I think things are getting a LIT--tle bit sloppy over at NobleSpirit. This one's a hoot for multiple reasons. Aside from the obviously re-drawn lines on the stamp, I wonder what purpose is supposed to be served by showing the back of the item (see the listing so you can see what I mean by that).
https://www.ebay.com/itm/385486224055
Meanwhile, image of the stamp below, and then a comparison with a real stamp below that. How many repairs/redraws do you see?

Wow. It just seems like so much work for what it is worth. A creative way to try and hide the rebacking by creating a "piece" but just so much effort.

Well, the clock is ticking down on the auction for the stamp I posted about just above. So far the bidding is at $86. Interested to see where it goes. I'd pay $25–$50 just to have it as a reference, with eyes wide open, knowing I'd never be able to sell it or get a good cert for it.

I wrote to the seller to inquire about the alterations and... no reply. Was I expecting one? Maybe. Kinda maybe. Should they have? Mmm... open for debate. Anyway, moving on, here's a recent find from a dealer website, no mention of repairs or alterations in the description.

You are carving a niche for yourself Essay! It is really interesting to see the shenanigans involved in doctoring just ONE classic issue. Philately can be such a dirty, filthy hobby at times. I love it.

Not another niche! That's the last thing I need is another niche!

Just that one experience at the San Diego show opened my eyes reeeeeeeeal wide. Since then I've had conversations with several dealer friends who told me about what used to go "in the business" and...

My oh my...

I purchased that 30¢ dog at San Diego, and I didn't pay too much for it. Perhaps I paid more than I should have, but it's fine. I'd like to get a few more dogs for a little reference collection, but on the heels of my S.D. purchase, I realize that I if I bought more examples, I'd never be able to sell them in the future for more than a pittance (if I'm lucky) and certainly I wouldn't be able to get good certs for them.

So for the purpose of getting a few more examples, I've written to a few dealers on ebay, HipStamp, etc., inquiring (nicely) about their dog 38s, pointing out the issues. My pitch has been this: if they agree with my assessment, I'd still be interested in purchasing their unsound stamps for reference at a price commensurate with an unsound stamp.

One seller was an APS store consignee. They wrote back and thanked me for pointing out the issues. They dropped their price by 50%, but that only brought it down to $100 — still too much. Then they wrote back to say that they noticed that the gum was defective and that they were going to de-list it unless I wanted to buy it. They didn't respond when I asked what their lowest price would be, so I guess they felt that it was better to not sell it than take less than $100 for it.

Another seller on ebay ended up editing his listing to reflect the repairs I pointed out, but he couldn't drop his price low enough for me. In any event, it was a pleasant exchange.

I understand that sellers may have invested more in these dogs than I was offering (and I wasn't trying to lowball anyone), but it is what it is.

Two other sellers (yes, there are lots of these out there) didn't respond, and in my opinion, the most unconscionable non-response came from the seller of the stamp on ebay that I posted about above. I read through their terms of sale, and they exempt themselves from responsibility by insisting that buyers need to look at their photos and note any defects themselves.

BTW, in that listing, if you flip the view of the back of the stamp 180º, it says "Repaired" in pencil on the back.

If I end up listing all of the examples of modified #38s I've found, this thread is gonna get mi-tee long, let me tell you!

[Edited because my emoticon didn't show up the first time]

Because they can always put it in a collection lot and use the full cat value for it. Collections full of "sliders", as they are known. And since there are dealers who will buy those lots, those items will show up on ebay again some time.

That previous one topped out at $86. I hope the buyer keeps it on piece and doesn't try to soak it or it may end up in pieces. And all the painted-in lines could wash off. I was considering buying it also as a reference copy but not for that price.

Are you going to post a side-by-side of the latest find with the red cancel? I'd be curious to see what you think. I see the painted-in mess in the upper left. Do you think the entire upper-left corner could be torn, diagonally from the P in Postage down to the left through to the Y in Thirty, or possibly I am imagining things. Then there's the diamonds and frameline at the bottom that's not supposed to be there, right? And possibly a half-inch horizontal crease between the T and S of Cents. What else do you see?

The same seller has another #38 that shows the same bottom frameline present, and then a 3rd #38 with PSE and no bottom frameline. Go figure.

Essay_proof,

Question for you. Do you think these all originated with one "artist"?

I am afraid to even see if I have a #38 for fear I will see that bottom line...

I really haven't touched my postage collection in years...

StateRevs, if your worst fears come true, don't worry, you might have a buyer for it. Same artist? Had that thought too. Need to spend more time with these images before drawing any conclusions.

ZebraMan, interesting observations! Unlike myself, you stamp guys will see those kinds of things (tears, etc. I'm not used to seeing those except on taxpaids, and they're a different animal). Yes, will do a write-up.

revcollector, Sliders, eh? (EEK!)

You are so right. Alas, you can find items similar to this one throughout the classics era on any stamp with a halfway decent cat value. And since this type of work was being done over 100 years ago too, there is no way to know when or by whom they were done.

"Need to spend more time with these images before drawing any conclusions."

Hello Everyone,

I thought it might be an idea to share some details of what the 30¢ stamp is supposed to look like — it's "ideal state" — before delving into more comparisons. One might think that an ideal subject would be found as a plate proof, but the fact is that no two subjects on the 200-subject plate are identical. There are many reasons for this, all of which are worth discussing, though I'd like to save that discussion/explanation (if needed) for another time.

So for future comparisons, I've decided to create an archetype from a die essay which reflects the idealized state of the design, and which includes the bottom frame lines that we should never see in a legitimate copy of the stamp. It will also provide the best template for the character of all of the other design elements.

The center image is my archetype which I'll use for future comparisons. It's exactly the same as the die essay shown on the left, but I've simulated the removal of the lower frame lines as would have been done on the transfer roll used to make the plate.

Arrows indicate the features you should expect to see at the bottom of a legitimate stamp. The plate proof on the right "proves" the validity of the simulation.

"A" and "B" indicate just two of the myriad differences between copies of stamps (and even die essays, stamps, and proofs). When making these comparisons, it's important to have a feel for which data to ignore and which to focus on.

You can spend all the time you like, but there is still over 100 years of this work being done, and there are only so many ways to do it. Even if the work looked identical it would not be anything more then a guess that the same person did it. There have been plenty of talented people involved in this kind of activity all using very similar methods.

and some not so talented "artists"