Stamp Community Family of Web Sites
Thousands of stamps, consistently graded, competitively priced and hundreds of in-depth blog posts to read
Stamp Community Forum
 
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.
Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some stamps?
Our stamp forum is completely free! Register Now!

Scott 38 30 1860. Legit?

Previous Page | Next Page    
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 63 / Views: 2,877Next Topic
Page: of 5
Valued Member
151 Posts
Posted 03/19/2023   04:29 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essay_proof to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I think things are getting a LIT--tle bit sloppy over at NobleSpirit. This one's a hoot for multiple reasons. Aside from the obviously re-drawn lines on the stamp, I wonder what purpose is supposed to be served by showing the back of the item (see the listing so you can see what I mean by that).
https://www.ebay.com/itm/385486224055
Meanwhile, image of the stamp below, and then a comparison with a real stamp below that. How many repairs/redraws do you see?




Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Bedrock Of The Community
10116 Posts
Posted 03/19/2023   08:25 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Wow. It just seems like so much work for what it is worth. A creative way to try and hide the rebacking by creating a "piece" but just so much effort.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
151 Posts
Posted 03/24/2023   6:11 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essay_proof to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Well, the clock is ticking down on the auction for the stamp I posted about just above. So far the bidding is at $86. Interested to see where it goes. I'd pay $25$50 just to have it as a reference, with eyes wide open, knowing I'd never be able to sell it or get a good cert for it.

I wrote to the seller to inquire about the alterations and... no reply. Was I expecting one? Maybe. Kinda maybe. Should they have? Mmm... open for debate. Anyway, moving on, here's a recent find from a dealer website, no mention of repairs or alterations in the description.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Bedrock Of The Community
10116 Posts
Posted 03/24/2023   7:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
You are carving a niche for yourself Essay! It is really interesting to see the shenanigans involved in doctoring just ONE classic issue. Philately can be such a dirty, filthy hobby at times. I love it.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
151 Posts
Posted 03/24/2023   8:24 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essay_proof to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Not another niche! That's the last thing I need is another niche!

Just that one experience at the San Diego show opened my eyes reeeeeeeeal wide. Since then I've had conversations with several dealer friends who told me about what used to go "in the business" and...

My oh my...

I purchased that 30 dog at San Diego, and I didn't pay too much for it. Perhaps I paid more than I should have, but it's fine. I'd like to get a few more dogs for a little reference collection, but on the heels of my S.D. purchase, I realize that I if I bought more examples, I'd never be able to sell them in the future for more than a pittance (if I'm lucky) and certainly I wouldn't be able to get good certs for them.

So for the purpose of getting a few more examples, I've written to a few dealers on ebay, HipStamp, etc., inquiring (nicely) about their dog 38s, pointing out the issues. My pitch has been this: if they agree with my assessment, I'd still be interested in purchasing their unsound stamps for reference at a price commensurate with an unsound stamp.

One seller was an APS store consignee. They wrote back and thanked me for pointing out the issues. They dropped their price by 50%, but that only brought it down to $100 still too much. Then they wrote back to say that they noticed that the gum was defective and that they were going to de-list it unless I wanted to buy it. They didn't respond when I asked what their lowest price would be, so I guess they felt that it was better to not sell it than take less than $100 for it.

Another seller on ebay ended up editing his listing to reflect the repairs I pointed out, but he couldn't drop his price low enough for me. In any event, it was a pleasant exchange.

I understand that sellers may have invested more in these dogs than I was offering (and I wasn't trying to lowball anyone), but it is what it is.

Two other sellers (yes, there are lots of these out there) didn't respond, and in my opinion, the most unconscionable non-response came from the seller of the stamp on ebay that I posted about above. I read through their terms of sale, and they exempt themselves from responsibility by insisting that buyers need to look at their photos and note any defects themselves.

BTW, in that listing, if you flip the view of the back of the stamp 180, it says "Repaired" in pencil on the back.

If I end up listing all of the examples of modified #38s I've found, this thread is gonna get mi-tee long, let me tell you!

[Edited because my emoticon didn't show up the first time]
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by essay_proof - 03/24/2023 8:29 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United States
8755 Posts
Posted 03/24/2023   9:02 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
One seller was an APS store consignee. They wrote back and thanked me for pointing out the issues. They dropped their price by 50%, but that only brought it down to $100 still too much. Then they wrote back to say that they noticed that the gum was defective and that they were going to de-list it unless I wanted to buy it. They didn't respond when I asked what their lowest price would be, so I guess they felt that it was better to not sell it than take less than $100 for it.


Because they can always put it in a collection lot and use the full cat value for it. Collections full of "sliders", as they are known. And since there are dealers who will buy those lots, those items will show up on ebay again some time.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
96 Posts
Posted 03/24/2023   11:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ZebraMan to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That previous one topped out at $86. I hope the buyer keeps it on piece and doesn't try to soak it or it may end up in pieces. And all the painted-in lines could wash off. I was considering buying it also as a reference copy but not for that price.

Are you going to post a side-by-side of the latest find with the red cancel? I'd be curious to see what you think. I see the painted-in mess in the upper left. Do you think the entire upper-left corner could be torn, diagonally from the P in Postage down to the left through to the Y in Thirty, or possibly I am imagining things. Then there's the diamonds and frameline at the bottom that's not supposed to be there, right? And possibly a half-inch horizontal crease between the T and S of Cents. What else do you see?

The same seller has another #38 that shows the same bottom frameline present, and then a 3rd #38 with PSE and no bottom frameline. Go figure.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
547 Posts
Posted 03/24/2023   11:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add StateRevs to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Essay_proof,

Question for you. Do you think these all originated with one "artist"?

I am afraid to even see if I have a #38 for fear I will see that bottom line...

I really haven't touched my postage collection in years...
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by StateRevs - 03/24/2023 11:29 pm
Valued Member
151 Posts
Posted 03/25/2023   12:55 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essay_proof to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
StateRevs, if your worst fears come true, don't worry, you might have a buyer for it. Same artist? Had that thought too. Need to spend more time with these images before drawing any conclusions.

ZebraMan, interesting observations! Unlike myself, you stamp guys will see those kinds of things (tears, etc. I'm not used to seeing those except on taxpaids, and they're a different animal). Yes, will do a write-up.

revcollector, Sliders, eh? (EEK!)
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by essay_proof - 03/25/2023 01:19 am
Pillar Of The Community
United States
8755 Posts
Posted 03/25/2023   08:55 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Sliders, eh? (EEK!)


You are so right. Alas, you can find items similar to this one throughout the classics era on any stamp with a halfway decent cat value. And since this type of work was being done over 100 years ago too, there is no way to know when or by whom they were done.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
3273 Posts
Posted 03/25/2023   09:29 am  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"Need to spend more time with these images before drawing any conclusions."
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
151 Posts
Posted 03/25/2023   09:30 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essay_proof to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Everyone,

I thought it might be an idea to share some details of what the 30 stamp is supposed to look like it's "ideal state" before delving into more comparisons. One might think that an ideal subject would be found as a plate proof, but the fact is that no two subjects on the 200-subject plate are identical. There are many reasons for this, all of which are worth discussing, though I'd like to save that discussion/explanation (if needed) for another time.

So for future comparisons, I've decided to create an archetype from a die essay which reflects the idealized state of the design, and which includes the bottom frame lines that we should never see in a legitimate copy of the stamp. It will also provide the best template for the character of all of the other design elements.

The center image is my archetype which I'll use for future comparisons. It's exactly the same as the die essay shown on the left, but I've simulated the removal of the lower frame lines as would have been done on the transfer roll used to make the plate.

Arrows indicate the features you should expect to see at the bottom of a legitimate stamp. The plate proof on the right "proves" the validity of the simulation.

"A" and "B" indicate just two of the myriad differences between copies of stamps (and even die essays, stamps, and proofs). When making these comparisons, it's important to have a feel for which data to ignore and which to focus on.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
151 Posts
Posted 03/25/2023   09:36 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essay_proof to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

Quote:
"Need to spend more time with these images before drawing any conclusions."
"Need to spend more time with these images before drawing any conclusions."

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
8755 Posts
Posted 03/25/2023   10:59 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
"Need to spend more time with these images before drawing any conclusions."


You can spend all the time you like, but there is still over 100 years of this work being done, and there are only so many ways to do it. Even if the work looked identical it would not be anything more then a guess that the same person did it. There have been plenty of talented people involved in this kind of activity all using very similar methods.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
3273 Posts
Posted 03/25/2023   11:57 am  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
and some not so talented "artists"
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Page: of 5 Previous TopicReplies: 63 / Views: 2,877Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.


Go to Top of Page
Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Stamp Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2023 Stamp Community Family - All rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Stamp Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Privacy Policy / Terms of Use    Advertise Here
Stamp Community Forum © 2007 - 2023 Stamp Community Forums
It took 0.21 seconds to lick this stamp. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05