Another Auction Question - Tear, No Tear?

I know auctions move a lot of material in general - mostly all the time I guess... And I for one have had my few shares of ups and downs. I know, buyer beware, know the terms, etc.

But alas, another novice question: If not posted otherwise in their Terms, do Auction Houses have a different meaning of the terms, F-VF, than what is used in the Scott catalog?

So here is my for instance - I bought the below, based the enclosed description. Upon closer inspection, it looks to be torn. Yes? Seems to be to me. From below the Queen's shoulder to the right, horizontally, through the edge.

How can it be a F-VF stamp with a tear? I guess its volume vs reality and that the Houses gamble that the buyer either will not see faults or care enough to return the item. Clearly they cannot inspect every item - right? If so, then how can they grade every one? Or is it just a statistical gamble on their part?

Scott definition - " When a stamp seller offers a stamp in any grade from fine to superb, without further qualifying statements, that stamp should not only have the centering grade as defined, but it also should be free of faults or other condition problems".

Whats listed is the catalog price - not what was paid.

Send it back as unreported defect . I doubt that the paper on the back was there at the time it went thru the mails . Paper was added to hide the tear .

Very fine should be with four clear margins (at least half the distance between two stamps) and without defects. At the top right, it looks like it has been cut into the margin up to the image. That, in itself, is an end to 'vf.' Very fine also requires a clean image and cancel. That is questionable. So far, 'fine' is the best it could be.

It does look like the stamp was tied to the paper by a black Maltese Cross. But it certainly looks like it has been torn. That makes it less than fine. USD 375 is shocking. Have a guaranteed beauty for about USD 435 instead.



https://www.stanleygibbons.com/prod...fu-red-mc-ih

Most auctions contain a range of four margin 1d blacks in good shape for around £100 (plus premium), aside from the rarer plates, eg

https://www.warwickandwarwick.com/a...ns/catalogue

That wasn't a goodie.

It might also be a crease that happened before being stuck down. Either way, it's a fault and grounds for return.

Stuff happens all the time. I respectfully suggest you should calm down. Maybe you don't believe that mistakes can happen, but not everyone in the world other than you is a fraudster out to get you. If it bothers you that much, you should then never buy at an auction without personally inspecting material.

NSK, read the OP again. That's (probably) the Scott catalog value. It's not a suggested bid.

If you can't tell you need to ask. Remember there are many catalogues in use depending upon area and country for the stamps in question as well as in use by the auction firms which are not all US based.

That said, the tear was an unnoticed flaw and the lot should easily be accepted back as not as described.

NOTE added as you self describe as a novice: Be sure to read the return conditions before placing a bid as there maybe circumstances for no returns are accepted such as large lots or lots which contain even a small number of stamps.

@Hy-Brasil,

If auctions are anything to go by, I would expect it to be a valuation. If I would have been looking at Michel, I would not have said USD 375, but EUR 350. That said, maybe US auction house quote catalogue values only.

In Europe/UK, auction houses do not quote catalogue values that prominently. They would have "(cat. € 375)" in the description and the 'valuation' in the position where the 375.00 is. What's paid never is shown in an auction list.

Enough auctions where I never pay more than 80% of that 'valuation.' I, usually, do not win with SG, as they tend to undervalue GB material in their auction lists.

Thank you HB. I think you may have read a little too much into it - I am very calm. Actually, to a fault some say as I don't often get excited. I am just looking for thoughts from those that have gone before me. But, one of my flaws ( called by some, but not all) does revolve around trust issues. This is based entirely on personal experiences which have happened all too much to be coincidence…. But , I digress a bit.

I have not bought a ton from auctions. But in many instances there have been issues. For the most part it has been worked out amicably. But sometimes not. And as you suggest - don't buy from them again - good suggestion - and I won't. I know nothing is perfect. But is seems to happen too often , in my opinion , that's what's listed is not accurate. My post on Sc 70 vs Sc78, plated Penny's not being a complete plate, this and there have been others…. As you mention, maybe auction buying is not for me. But, I also need to hone my skills a bit too, which is why I asked and posted this. And I know I need to spend more time on inspections. But I also wanted to make sure that It is torn and that has been confirmed I believe.

And I have to say, everyone has been very helpful and I appreciate the advice. Thank you.

Thank you all for the help.

NSK - the 375USD is the Scott value I believe. Not 100% sure as I have an older edition , but pretty sure. It's not what I paid.

Did the auction lot include a photo of the stamp?

That I don't remember. I tried looking it back up on SAN, but was told it's been removed. I couldn't find it. I usually save them if they are there, but I could not find where I had in this case. Their catalog listing had no picture.

At the very least it is creased, and as stated above it is damaged and should be returned.

My question is more whether this listing just posts Scott Catalogue values, or whether they thought that to be a fair valuation. I have never seen an auction listing that 'just' adds a catalogue value. In fact, when they refer to the catalogue value - I have only seen that in the descriptions -, usually, they are pointing at the large discount in the valuation. Sometimes, they had it in stock too long and it is a good buy. Most of the time, they are trying to make you realise it is in a bad state, but priced as such. If they do, I wonder whether Scott lists prices for individual plates and if not, would a plate 11 example then be listed as 375.00?

375.00 is very misleading for the example you posted. I think GeoffHa's post gives some benchmark that I would expect in an auction listing.

Scott Classic Specialized does list separate prices for Penny Blacks by plate, at least as to the basic black. They don't price by plates for intense or worn.

@NSK




I thought I would double check the Auction House catalog which states

" Numbers and prices are from the Scott Catalogues in US Dollars unless otherwise noted."

The 375 USD I referenced is from the auction listing - not my number. I thought it might have been the Scott valuation. So I thought I would look at the SG QV Specialsed Catalog listing for Plate 5. It states for a used AS25 , Plate 5 in black, State 1, £375.

I do not know what State this stamp is.

The prices in the SG specialised are for stamps in 'very fine' condition. That catalogue is almost three years old now. I have seen quite a few stamps at auction going over catalogue price.
Here, the price in a auction listing would always be a 'valuation' - whatever that may mean -. If it shows the catalogue price, you may safely assume the next SG Concise will list it 30-40% higher than the Specialised Vol 1, Part 1.

The stamp you posted, I think, would be 'average' best. But I do think you have a valid point about the tear. I also think the paper is an original part of the mail item and not added to hide any tear. The issue with British stamps of the 1800s is that the fast majority does not come close to catalogue quality and price. Usually, if the quality is less than very fine, the price drops sharply. If ist is less than fine, it falls of a cliff.

If it is not a tear, I would not expect an auction house to go higher than £150 in its listing.

Sandafayre, currently, estimates a Penny Black with very good margins, nice cancellation, but horizontal crease (if not for that it would have been very fine) at £60-£70. They do not plate it.
Sandafayre, very much, overestimates. If your stamp, indeed, has a tear, this one with the crease might be in better condition.