Impressive Dealers Warehouse

That. 100%

Let me just say that there has only been one auction firm that I consigned to that was extremely difficult to extract my money out of. In fact, it was really, really unpleasant and took a long, long time. Guesses?

The UGLY side of the stamp business ,the part most collectors don't see . ---- GETTING PAID .

This is a two way problem , for both the buyer and the seller . It is not hard to sell your collection and give it to someone who walks out the door with your collection . The problem is getting paid .

Those few dealers I mentioned above know this . Some of them always have $200,000 or $1,000,000 in cash ,so when they get into a deal to buy a big collection they can offer 10% or 20% less because of one fact . That fact is "they can put the money on the table " . So you got to decide to you take the cash in front of you or do you sign a contract to get paid sometime in the future like after 3 months of the dealer wheeling and dealing and selling your collection all over the place ,while your waiting for them to try and collect their money {accuturly -your money } from some two-bit stamp dealer .
What a deal for you ,you give up your valueable collection and this auctioneer is fighting to get paid from some clown who over bought at auction and can't pay him to pay you .

And its partly the auction house's fault - for letting some of these clowns bid more than they can pay on time (they know who these clowns are).

Did not this year's first quarter of Kelleher's Collector Quarterly article on the Hawiian Missionary stamps get called out by Ken Lawrence?
Don

Time for a story to have with your morning coffee -----

A story about me and Gregg Manning Auctions {the dollars amounts are for example and NOT the true numbers }

After a season of Asphalt work , I shut the business down for the winter ,sat down and figured out how much money I had for buying stamps . Paid my employee, gave money to the wife and paid for a year of college for my daugther , and how much money I need for the business until next April . Work was done until spring time .

Drove off to New Jersey to buy stamps for a long cold winter . I took $10,000 ,well got to the auction started viewing stamp each day at Manning ,My problem was I saw more than I had money for .

It was time to talk to Mr Tully ,the business manager at GMA , he gave me a quick answer ,it was HELL NO . I was asking for time to pay another $4,000 or $5,000 . So I went to Gregg for a final answer .


Gregg and I sat in his office and he explain the stamp auction business and went into all the details of business loans to stamp buyers and stamp dealers . He asked about my business and why $5,000 was a issue ? I told him I just spend $160,000 last month on two dump trucks and was broke . He ask about recieveables and told him it was about $50,000 due in the next 30 to 60 days .

He basiclly wanted to know I wasn't buying stamps to sell ,it was all for fun and games for the long winter months . He also learned if I needed additional funds to pay for stamps all I had to do next week was to just load up one of my trucks and start it up on Monday morning . He didn't want to give me a loan like that room full of guys sitting outside his office because as he explain to me a lot of them still own him money from previous auctions .

So as ROGDCAM explained some auction houses can't pay him because some other dealers didn't paid the house .

Nonsense. Qualify your customers before extending credit, require a credit card charge authorization, or get a bank line of credit.

Auction houses appear to be rank amateurs in managing cash flow, which every business has to learn. Taking a month to pay a consignor makes sense, but when consignors report repeatedly waiting six months or more for payment, the auction house has a fundamental failure in qualifying buyers or running its accounts team. The house's decision to accept a deadbeat buyer is not the consignor's fault.

I trust very, very few auction houses for just this kind of reason. For me, any business which does not do what CJ describes above when extending credit reeks of desperation and is a red flag. Half-assed or 'instant' extending of credit is a total amateur business move.

Anyone recall Regency? Perhaps this is all a part of the 'philatelists are willing to forgive and forget very easily' perspective?
Don

Nearly all stamp businesses are on the edge of failure 75% of the time. I've been on the inside and seen it. Everybody floats everybody a ton of credit. Credit, to the extent that it doesn't make sense to anyone with any fiscal acumen. There is a lot of "If you help me out now, I'll help you out later". THAT'S why all the credit being extended is to other dealers and not to collectors hoping to get 60 or 90 days to pay. I know it doesn't make sense, but that's just the way it is. In the end, it's the collector-buyer and the collector-consignor that takes it on the chin. Other than the 'whales', the average collector is probably good for one or two $25k+ deals (buying OR consigning), whereas other dealers are (eventually) good for many large deals. It's the 'eventually' that makes things messy for everybody. Even the dealers flush with cash are trying to get time to pay - that allows them to use their cash to buy something big that walks in the door where credit won't work.

Here is why floortrader is MOOTEMUTT987's favorite customer .

First his checkbook is open at the end of the auction or it is on-line the check is received in a week .

Second ,never had this client received a second notice for payment in 50 years of auction buying .

Third , he buys anything and everything .

Fourth , He gets his own lots for viewing and knows were to put them back ,even helps staff if needed . Packs everything back correctly .

Fifth , He is a "PUSHER " he doesn't let nice stuff gets won cheap ,good for two to four bids pushing the price upward . NYSTAMPS hates him ,they overpaid many times because he is on the floor .

Six , Never complians about his purchases ,no returns .

Only problem is he leaves twice a day during viewing sessions to go to Mc Donalds to get his .99 cent ice coffee ,leaves a empty seat in the viewing room . other than that Moot puts up with his crap .

That is an over estimate of the "average collector" unless you mean the "average collector" who buys from one of the top 6 auction firms.

The reality is the "average collector" does not do much for the average dealer. The top 6 auction firms are not the average dealers.

As to consigning for sale, as I have written before, one never wants to be in a company's first or last auction as those are the two which might just cost you your materiel.




As long as you don't retract your bid, then you are not shilling. However, NYSTAMPS, for which your dislike has been well noticed in you SCF posts, has not been over paying for materiel as they are still in business selling stock for more than they paid. All your bid raising does is transfer some profit from one dealer to another.

Frankly, the "average collector" rarely puts together a collection with a cash value of $10,000. They put together collection of far lesser value. For them as well as many above average collectors, NYSTAMPS and other so-called shovelware dealers do more for them and the hobby than the brick and mortar big outfits.

As to your term of "shovelware dealer" I will point out that when diamond hunting, one needs to turn over lots of dirt to find a diamond. I believe you or at least some SCF referred to CKStamps as a shovelware dealer, yet they too offer diamonds in their dirt and here is one offered on April 20, 2023, a WX11, MNH, with a Scoot Catalog value of $1400.00 and which sold at $721.00, free shipping plus any local taxes required. It is believe only one sheet was ever printed or this rarity.





Prior to that, the last one I saw at auction was a few years ago in a Harmer-Schau Auction. Later I obtained my copy, wait for it, wait for it.....


From an APS circuit book.

As a collector-buyer, I have never gotten credit from an auction house. I have, however, bought material with terms, over time, many times from individual dealers. I have always viewed this as a value-add that private dealers, whom I have a good relationship with, can provide for me. It will sometimes get them my business - and repeat business over years.

and one dealer is holding a check of mine right now waiting for 6-30-2023 to roll around. If he has that much backbone to charge an obscene price, he can wait for his money. Yes, I know, but there are only three recorded and it is the first I had the chance to buy in decades . I know I could wait, but we all die eventually .

To give credit where credit is due my best experience consigning was with Raritan out of NJ. They paid me half of my monies within a week of the sale and the other half arrived before the due date. It was mid five figures. Others that have met their due dates/obligations have been Rasdale, Siegel, Harmer and a couple of others I can't recall. The one that was a miserable experience did it to me twice. Shame on me for the second time.

As for the bad experience, I have written about it before. Suffice it to say that I was told that the bidder had not paid and after something like nine months and having my finger on the phone to dial my attorney they paid up. The story was that the bidder was coming to the auction that week to be a floor bidder and would not be allowed to bid unless they paid their bill. As others have said that is amateur hour to the 9th power and it is amazing to me that after stiffing a business, they would still be allowed to be a customer. My conclusion is that the auction house cannot be on sound footing if they need someone like that as a customer. I doubt that Siegel would tolerate such behavior. It left me even more cynical about the hobby than I had been. Now I find more joy in playing with regular stamps. It is less stressful.

ParcelPostGuy - I am in the market for a WX-11. There were 2 at different auction houses within the last month or two (underbidder on both - I had to work those days, unable to take the time off, and had to leave bids before the auction). Plus, there was another the month before. IIRC, none were NH. But.... one can wait years/decades to have a chance at a really nice one. Over the last few months, relative to the years before that, there was a proverbial 'dump' of WX-11's on the market. Like I've never seen before. A truly sound one (one recently had a corner crease, another with an unpunched perf) is REALLY tough! I am still in the market. I hope the 'pop' in activity isn't over.

As to the 'average collector' - you are right. The average collector is small beans compared to anything we are talking about here. Really small beans. I guess I meant the average collector who bids at auction. Most buy less than a handful of $100+ items per year, and those may be spread out over a handful of companies. After decades of that kind of buying, they may end up with a collection that would get a dealer/auctioneer excited about when it is time to liquidate. THAT is the one large transaction that collector contributes to the 'pool' of transactions for a dealer/auctioneer. Among ALL collectors, though, that person is 'above average' as far as spending and activity are concerned.