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Help With Cancels On 2c Banknote Pair

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Valued Member
86 Posts
Posted 03/17/2025   11:57 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add solomons_prayer to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Trying to figure out how to label these postmarks. Is it a fancy cancel?
I have seen an X with a circle around it but the X was thinner than these.


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Bedrock Of The Community
11700 Posts
Posted 03/17/2025   12:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Not a "fancy" cancel IMO. You can research cancellations of the Banknote era here:

https://www.uspcs.org/wp-content/up...okmarked.pdf
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Posted 03/17/2025   1:03 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It says "Canton" on the reverse, and they do look like Chinese chop cancels that I have seen.
http://pfsearch.org/pfsearch/pf_grd...lledfrom=lkp
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Posted 03/17/2025   1:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Petert4522 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, it does say "Canton" but there is a " Miss " below it.


Peter
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Posted 03/17/2025   1:33 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add solomons_prayer to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Oh wow! Yes, you are correct Revcollector. Those must be Yokohama chop cancels.
It is written Canton Miss on the back, but I wonder if the previous owner didn't assume Mississippi because he saw "Canton" written on the cover, like the one shown in revcollector's pf database search.

Rogdcam- Thank you for the pdf by James Cole. I will definitely use it in the future!
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Posted 03/17/2025   1:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I would think no chance of Mississippi with that red New York Transit mark, that was an overseas marking at that point.
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Posted 03/17/2025   1:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add solomons_prayer to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Revcollector- Yes, I was thinking that as well.

I have another intuition that's a separate topic. I know it's very improbable, but I'm considering submitting this as a 168 rather than a 157. I have quite a good collection of banknotes and have been studying them for years, but the paper and the impression here looks much more "refined" than what I'm used to seeing. I have plenty of clear printings of the 157, but never considered them as something different from just that.

I'll post some others here to show as comparison. The one above will be the last.






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Posted 03/17/2025   1:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add solomons_prayer to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
My old scanner doesn't show the color well at all. Here's a picture from my smartphone. The color on these are consistent to how the 168 is described.

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Posted 03/17/2025   2:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I know it's very improbable, but I'm considering submitting this as a 168 rather than a 157.


Out of curiosity why do you think that you have discovered the first used 1875 Special Printing (issued without gum by the way) Scott 168 not even as a single but as a pair?
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Posted 03/17/2025   2:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I think it highly improbable that it is a special printing. The impressions of special printings jump out at the eye. Once one has seen one or two, it becomes obvious just how bright and sharp they are compared to the regularly issued stamp.
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Posted 03/17/2025   2:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Also look at the perforations.....
http://pfsearch.org/pfsearch/pf_grd...lledfrom=lkp
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Posted 03/17/2025   5:54 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add sheetguy2 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Dont think "CHOP" cancels
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Posted 03/18/2025   2:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add solomons_prayer to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Out of curiosity why do you think that you have discovered the first used 1875 Special Printing (issued without gum by the way) Scott 168 not even as a single but as a pair?

Yeah, I know it must sound delusional right?

A wise man once told me "just let the stamp speak for itself". Wanting something to be valid has no place in expertizing, this is true. But it's also not advisable to go the opposite direction and cloud one's judgement with too much probability when experience can speak for itself. That is all I'm trying to do.

You mentioned the 168 being NGAI. Was that to imply that it couldn't exist on a cover? If so, it doesn't necessarily have to mean anything in my opinion because regumming is a very common occurance. Actually, there's dried adhesive smeared all around the border of this pair and onto the cover, so it may be that something else was used to apply them. It might also be the reason why it has browned perfs, since that can happen to stamps that were improperly regummed.

But thank you rogdcam. I need experienced people like yourself to build cases against what I show so that I can test things for myself. Iron sharpens iron!
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Posted 03/18/2025   2:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Solomons,
So if you send this off for a certificate and they say it is *not* a special pritning, will you believe them?
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Posted 03/18/2025   2:42 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add solomons_prayer to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Revcollector- I did consider the perfs not being scissor-trimmed as they usually are, but going through the 2c database it looks like there are many that have also been removed by hand. Some are clean, some not clean.



I've never seen a certified special printing in hand, but I do have experience with proof plates and lots of experience with the standard issues and all of the paper varieties they come on. Actually, there are two proof plates submitted as 168s in the PF database you posted, and one can be quick to make that determination without having to look at the description if they have pretty good experience.

This brings up another good point about SPs:
Online images are all over the place in terms of detail, but a proof is always something that can be easily recognizable despite the image quality. Special printings are different. They are somewhere in between a standard issue and a proof in terms of design detail (but closer to a proof).
This means that your assessment has to be correct, in that the stamp will "pop out" at you when you examine it in hand. There's really no other way to explain it in greater detail, and must take experience and knowledge, then instinct.

Pictures of a special printing can actually mislead the collector if that's where they place most of their confidence in, because the range of image quality is so expansive. To add to the confusion, some images even had their resolution enhanced to give the stamp a stronger look, which can also be proven digitally.
I thought about this one, and I don't blame anyone for doing this because, as I've shown in my own images, scanners don't usually do a good job of showing the uniqueness of what can be seen in hand. That must be frustrating for someone that's trying to show others what they themselves see.
Then to add even more chaos, there are certified SPs with printing anomolies like over-inking which causes a darker color and the ink to bleed into the design. I have many over-inked banknotes that do look quite special, but the two I'm showing here have something exceptional about them that makes me at least confident in a submission.

It wasn't the best idea to splatter all of the images separately like I did above, so I tied it together many standard issues that have exceptional detail in hopes of letting you see at least a better version of what I see in hand.



Again, the scanner is way less impressive than what is seen in hand. It is 'sleek' and 'refined' in a way that I haven't seen on any other banknote, but it's hard to put into words.
The three directly above the clipping and the red "paid all" below it are ribbed papers. I included them because ribbed paper is known for having deep and clear printing quality, but the pair still blows them away.



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Posted 03/18/2025   3:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
2022 cat 6,000 each = $12000+

OK, consider: if these stamps were not yours but were offered to you asis for $5000 and you had the cash to spend, would you?
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