Stamp Community Family of Web Sites
Stamp Community Forum
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some stamps?
Our stamp forum is completely free! Register Now!

Overprinted... or not?  
 

 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Valued Member

United States
19 Posts
Posted 11/13/2017   4:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add will to your friends list  Get a Link to this Message
I've a question. A few years ago a re-known expert refused to give me a COA for the following piece. I've my doubts. He said he found remnants of an overprint on these stamps, but never said where.

The piece in question is this one:
FRONT:


BACK:


Let me attach a couple of images of two regular stamps of this printing and value in two of the different shades that it could be found, both showing how the overprint usually looks like:


And this is 1200dpi image of the stamps:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Z...Ewn-1VP9tMN6

I do see a couple of... something that could be considered rest of an overprint... or of whatever else we want to. I don't think it's been washed. The pen marks are intact and the fragment is not affected either. So it wasn't washed on or off the paper.

I'd like to know what do y'all think.

Thanks in advance,

*** Moved by Staff to a more appropriate forum. ***
Send note to Staff

Pillar Of The Community
France, Metropolitan
661 Posts
Posted 11/13/2017   7:15 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Well,The two stamps you added look like forged overprints.I know their
tiny letters.pic below with an authentic "Junio"overprint,


1871 50R green
block:

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by perf12 - 11/13/2017 7:29 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United States
570 Posts
Posted 11/13/2017   7:18 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Whose signature is on the back?

On the right stamp, I can see a trace of a gray band starting at the R of FUERTES going all the way across the stamp. There is also a similar trace starting above the S of FUERTES that can be seen in places going across the stamp. These are in the position of the overprint bands. Even greater magnification is what's needed. It would also be useful to put a blacklight on this to see if the overprint is there or not.

What is the partial handstamp above the two stamps? Does it go under the stamps? You might be able to see that if put in watermark fluid.

I don't like the feathering/run particularly visible in the tail of the S in the cancel. This can indicate writing added to aged old paper. However, the back show a lesser amount of feathering in 2 spots, so the paper was not the best quality to start with.

Chemical erasure could always be possible while not affect writing or stamp ink. I don't know what that would be for the overprints here.

Also, is "Solon Ramires" (or whatever it) a known postal cancel? This looks more like a revenue usage.



Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Stamp Smarter's 20th Century US Fancy Cancel database:
http://www.stampsmarter.com/feature...rn_Home.html
Valued Member
United States
19 Posts
Posted 11/13/2017   7:42 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add will to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
@staff: Thanks for moving it to a more appropriate place!

@Perf12: As far as I know there are no forged overprints in this series. The one you're showing belongs to the First Printing, which is very distinctive from the other 8 printings, including the Second Printing which is the closest one in similarities to the one you showed. The overprints shown in the couple of pairs I posted belongs to the Seventh Printing and 80%+ of the time they have that blurred look.

@hy-brasil: Thanks for your explanation! I've a COA from 1977 from Josť Roura, a known and respected local authority. The COA says this is what I hope it is. So the initials you saw are from him, JR.

"What is the partial handstamp above the two stamps?"
You mean the lower part of the J from "de Jose"?

Blacklight... good point. I'll do that tonight.

The "J" could be behind the stamp. As you correctly guessed this is a fiscal usage. Placing the stamp on the documents, and cancel every stamp on them was the last part of the process.

Not sure what do you mean by feathering, sorry :(

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by will - 11/14/2017 6:40 pm
Valued Member
United States
19 Posts
Posted 11/13/2017   7:45 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add will to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
@perf12: Where did you get the picture of the B10?

That piece is mine :)

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by will - 11/13/2017 7:51 pm
Pillar Of The Community
France, Metropolitan
661 Posts
Posted 11/13/2017   7:54 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
19 Posts
Posted 11/13/2017   7:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add will to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks.. That explains it. I started that thread years ago.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
France, Metropolitan
661 Posts
Posted 11/13/2017   8:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It is an interesting thread.The different printings do make a difference as you said.Are you a specialized collector of Venezuela?
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
19 Posts
Posted 11/13/2017   8:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add will to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"Specialized collector of Venezuela" sounds too big for me. I'm a specialized collector of the first Three ESCUELAS Series, but I do know a little bit of Venezuela up to 1903, locals included.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
France, Metropolitan
661 Posts
Posted 11/14/2017   07:52 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Will: Could you post some forgeries + real stamps of the escuelas
issue ? The points of interest too differenciate the stamps.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
570 Posts
Posted 11/14/2017   4:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
"What is the partial handstamp above the two stamps?"
You mean the lower part of the J from "de Jose"?

See red arrows in a copy of the image.


Quote:
Not sure what do you mean by feathering, sorry :(

It is the ink running/bleeding in tiny amounts, usually due to poor quality paper or ink. See blue arrows. I don't think the stain, original or not, would cause that. Not important at this time, I just wanted to clarify.

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Stamp Smarter's 20th Century US Fancy Cancel database:
http://www.stampsmarter.com/feature...rn_Home.html
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
3182 Posts
Posted 11/14/2017   5:22 pm  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add revenuecollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Will's being modest. He's the author of an excellent book on the Escuelas stamps entitled "Introducing Venezuela's 1871-1880 ESCUELAS Stamps":

http://escuelascollectors.com/
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
19 Posts
Posted 11/14/2017   5:51 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add will to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
@perf12: As far as I know, there are zero fake stamps on the First ESCUELAS Series. There are plenty of fake cancels and forged cancellations, though. Any postal mark on a 3R+ must be considered forged.

@revenuecollector: Thanks! I really appreciate your words! Glad you liked the book!

@hy-brasil: Thanks for the clarification. The "partial handstamps" are actually pen marks on the back of the fragment.

I made a copy of that specific segment on the back, circled them in red and put them one above the other. That should make more evident what they are.

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
France, Metropolitan
661 Posts
Posted 11/14/2017   6:10 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Will is really modest..
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
19 Posts
Posted 11/14/2017   7:07 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add will to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Ok, I put the fragment under UV light. Pictures taken from a Celestron MicroCapture Pro.

At 375nm:





Just in case, at 254nm (this one was really hard to get a good image):



Can't see any traces of alteration :(
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by will - 11/14/2017 7:09 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Norway
1376 Posts
Posted 11/14/2017   8:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Blaamand to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Will, it's a bit complicated for me... but I love your 'forensic' work!
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
United States Postal Service, Now on eBay!United States Postal Service, Now on eBay!
New Forum TopicsRecently Active Forum Topics
  Scott 27 6C LQ what a mess!
  Are these stamps and stamp cancellations?
  HOW TO DETECT FAKES AND FORGERIES ON WORLD COVERS Link
  Are these even cosidered stamps..??
  Show us your Turkey's on stamps
  Otoman Empire / Turkey revenues?
  Help with 2 China stamps
  need help identifing scott cat number
  Need help identifying 1888 cancel on a 2 cent Washington stamp still on envelope
  Belgium Postage Due Lion Types.
  The extreme of laziness? (RB52)
  Kuk Militar Post Question and Please Help Id Another Stamp I Can't Read
  Bill Steiner System Hacked
  Japanese report/documents c.1928. Any philatelic relevance?
  1934 USA Park Stamps Real or fake?
  Is this 5 cent Columbian cut square U350a?
  Is this a "unicorn" stamp or just wishful thinking?
  So ebay people sell customized stamps as if they were collectible?
  Revenue Stamps Collecting and Value
  QV 1896 Army Official Postmark Help
  US Washington 3c identity help
  Is this technically superb?
  Delcampe Vs Ebay, Am I missing something?
  Stamps cancelled with pen squiggles
  Is this category in the best forum?

  What Was in YOUR Mailbox Today??
  Scott 27 6C LQ what a mess!
  Are these stamps and stamp cancellations?
  I inherited my Uncle's huge collection of stamps, thought you might enjoy seeing some of it
  Traditional Costumes Worldwide
  Any interest in world Postal Stationery?
  Kiloware Purchase... Not sure if
  HOW TO DETECT FAKES AND FORGERIES ON WORLD COVERS Link
  Having Trouble Identifying this Stamp - Appears to be Imperforate
  Coil Test Strips
  Otoman Empire / Turkey revenues?
  Hanukkah stamps issued today (November 14th) and immediately recalled
  Are these even cosidered stamps..??
  Belgium Postage Due Lion Types.
  The Stamps of Turkey : On Steiner Pages.
  Scott 441 flat plate coil paste-up?
  Help with 2 China stamps
  Is this a fake I grill?
  Holiday Give-Away #1
  Show us your Turkey's on stamps
  Christmas Around the World 2017
  Stamp Inventory Programs
  Is this 5 cent Columbian cut square U350a?
  Holiday Give-Away #2
  Holiday Give-Away #3

Go to Top of Page
Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Stamp Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2017 Stamp Community Family - All rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Stamp Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Privacy Policy / Terms of Use    Advertise Here
Stamp Community Forum © 2005 - 2017 Coin Community Forums
It took 1.31 seconds to lick this stamp. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05