Stamp Community Family of Web Sites
Stamp Community Forum
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some stamps?
Our stamp forum is completely free! Register Now!

Questions about Bureau printing direction and exceptions  
 

 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Valued Member
Germany
450 Posts
Posted 11/14/2017   3:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Message
Hello,

I am going through a lot of precancels again and would like to know:

- from what time on were the Bureau precancels of horizontal stamps also reading up ("both allowed" up and down), so that this wasn't an exception anymore like for the early 20c Golden Gate stamp?

- I know that inverted precancels are very common and I have a lot of them. But I read here somewhere that chasa (I think) said that for the Bureau precancels the inverted are all fakes, so they are not that common. Is that correct, or are they also common for Bureau?

thank you.


Send note to Staff

Pillar Of The Community
United States
756 Posts
Posted 11/14/2017   6:03 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Hal to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Stamperix,

In the U.S. there are basically two types of Precancels: Bureau of Engraving & Printing (BEP) precancels and Local "Town & Type" Precancels. To the best of my knowledge, Bureau of Engraving & Printing (BEP) precancels are not found inverted. Local "Town & Type" Precancels are where inverted precancels a numerous and not considered fakes…there is no premium value placed on inverted "Town & Type" precancels. "Town & Type" precancels were designed to permit Postmasters in small towns to precancel stamps where they could not meet the minimum order of 250,000 to 500,000 stamps required by the BEP. To my knowledge ALL BEP stamps, sheet or coil were printed "UP", not "Inverted". There may be a rare exception of an error sheet. I'm sure someone will correct any error I make.

Best,
Hal

Hallo Stamperix,

In den USA gibt es im Grunde zwei Arten von Precancels: Bureau of Engraving & Printing (BEP) und lokale "Town & Type" Precancels. Nach meinem besten Wissen sind Bureau of Engraving & Printing (BEP) Vorstufen nicht invertiert. Lokale "Town & Type" -Herausforderungen sind, wo invertierte Vorauswahlen eine zahlreiche und nicht in Betracht gezogene Fälschungen ... es gibt keinen Premium-Wert, der auf umgekehrte "Town & Type" -Voraussetzungen gelegt wird. "Town & Type" Vorentwürfe wurden entwickelt, um Postmasters in kleinen Städten zu erlauben, Briefmarken vorzumerken, wo sie die Mindestbestellung von 250.000 bis 500.000 Briefmarken, die von der BEP verlangt werden, nicht erfüllen konnten. Meines Wissens wurden ALLE BEP Briefmarken, Bogen oder Coils "UP" gedruckt, nicht "Inverted". Es kann eine seltene Ausnahme eines Fehlerblatts geben. Ich bin mir sicher, dass jemand irgendeinen Fehler korrigieren wird.

Beste,
Hal
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
Germany
450 Posts
Posted 11/15/2017   09:11 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Hal, nice to have two language versions :), I also understood your English one, so I continue in English here.

So that would fit to what I remember having read here at SCF before about the inverted BEP precancels (which then wouldn't exist if it's correct?), as said I don't find the thread anymore where it was discussed.

About the "up" I meant the reading of the precancel of horizontal stamps, which at least at the beginning all were reading down (with the mentioned exceptions), but to some point in time there must have been a change as I have seen many BEP reading up horizontal stamps later?

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
Germany
450 Posts
Posted 11/16/2017   3:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I searched and read a bit longer.

In this PDF by the PSS it says that only the three well-known precancels on the 20c Golden Gate were inverted (BEP). So there are no others.
http://www.precancels.com/wordpress...ecancels.pdf

I was surprised when I found here some of yours, chasa, style 241:
http://goscf.com/t/46945#406180

But then I understood that in the PSS style chart...
http://precancels.com/wordpress/wp-...dium-res.pdf
...these aren't all BEP styles. I thought so before as I took this PDF as an opposite to the local types. But only the first types (page 3) are bureau plates, the others aren't. I also have the PSS bureau catalogue of 2007 and wondered why there are only these first types but not all the others listed in the style PDF. Now I know.

The "reading up" or "down" question I can also answer by myself, as I think the reading up is just "inverted", and "inverted" does not exist at BEP with the mentioned exceptions.

But of course I still have a question which is now a bit different.
- there are nearly no BEP inverts - ok.
- there are many inverts on local precancels - ok.
- but: are there also inverts on the styles 101 - 906 (see style PDF), or only on the "L"-locals?






Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
2111 Posts
Posted 11/16/2017   9:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add chasa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
To answer the question posed on your last line - yes there are invert on many of the 101-906 styles - on the 100 series there is a catalog that lists and prices all the known orientations - on the DLE series (241-252) there is a catalog that lists and prices all orientations - on the other printed types (200's and printed locals) some catalogs list and price orientations - the other (400-900's) can be collected but reference books usually ignore orientations.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
Germany
450 Posts
Posted 11/17/2017   02:23 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you, chasa. Everything is answered. I look at the catalogue page of the PSS http://www.precancels.com/pss-publications/.
I think the DLE catalogue is there, but the 100 series catalogue, which one would that be?


Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
125 Posts
Posted 11/17/2017   11:09 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Lioness2 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello
I just reviewed the PSS literature pertaining to only 3 exist on a 20c, (figure 9).
I went threw my pre cancels and I found these two 20c with overprints Milwaukee, Wisc in down and upward direction. These are not considered part of 3 BPE list. Has another one been found?

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
Germany
450 Posts
Posted 11/17/2017   11:12 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The three reading up precancels are BEP precancels, so you would always have to check whether your precancel is a BEP precancel (types on page 3 in the style PDF in the link above).
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
125 Posts
Posted 11/17/2017   12:07 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Lioness2 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Milwaukee, Wisc. is in the Electroplates category 234 as per the PSS Style Chart.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
United States Postal Service, Now on eBay!United States Postal Service, Now on eBay!
New Forum TopicsRecently Active Forum Topics
  Are these even cosidered stamps..??
  Show us your Turkey's on stamps
  Otoman Empire / Turkey revenues?
  Help with 2 China stamps
  need help identifing scott cat number
  Need help identifying 1888 cancel on a 2 cent Washington stamp still on envelope
  Belgium Postage Due Lion Types.
  The extreme of laziness? (RB52)
  Kuk Militar Post Question and Please Help Id Another Stamp I Can't Read
  Bill Steiner System Hacked
  Japanese report/documents c.1928. Any philatelic relevance?
  1934 USA Park Stamps Real or fake?
  Is this 5 cent Columbian cut square U350a?
  Is this a "unicorn" stamp or just wishful thinking?
  So ebay people sell customized stamps as if they were collectible?
  Revenue Stamps Collecting and Value
  QV 1896 Army Official Postmark Help
  US Washington 3c identity help
  Is this technically superb?
  Delcampe Vs Ebay, Am I missing something?
  Stamps cancelled with pen squiggles
  Is this category in the best forum?
  Stamp Inventory Programs
  Having Trouble Identifying this Stamp - Appears to be Imperforate
  Tribal Mask fancy cancel? Or someone having fun with a Sharpie marker?

  The Stamps of Turkey : On Steiner Pages.
  Scott 441 flat plate coil paste-up?
  Hanukkah stamps issued today (November 14th) and immediately recalled
  Help with 2 China stamps
  I inherited my Uncle's huge collection of stamps, thought you might enjoy seeing some of it
  Is this a fake I grill?
  Traditional Costumes Worldwide
  Holiday Give-Away #1
  Show us your Turkey's on stamps
  Christmas Around the World 2017
  Stamp Inventory Programs
  Is this 5 cent Columbian cut square U350a?
  Holiday Give-Away #2
  Holiday Give-Away #3
  Are these even cosidered stamps..??
  Delcampe Vs Ebay, Am I missing something?
  Please Help to Identify Japanese Revenues & Documents 1890's?
  Australia one penny red stamp
  Japanese report/documents c.1928. Any philatelic relevance?
  Is this a "unicorn" stamp or just wishful thinking?
  Kuk Militar Post Question and Please Help Id Another Stamp I Can't Read
  Belgium Postage Due Lion Types.
  need help identifing scott cat number
  Need help identifying 1888 cancel on a 2 cent Washington stamp still on envelope
  Baseball Topical Stamps

Go to Top of Page
Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Stamp Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2017 Stamp Community Family - All rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Stamp Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Privacy Policy / Terms of Use    Advertise Here
Stamp Community Forum © 2005 - 2017 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.59 seconds to lick this stamp. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05