Stamp Community Family of Web Sites
Stamp Community Forum
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some stamps?
Our stamp forum is completely free! Register Now!

What do proof and essay experts think of this stamp?  
 

 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Valued Member
United States
369 Posts
Posted 02/21/2018   11:38 am  Show Profile Check rlsny's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add rlsny to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I took a chance and bid and won this stamp at the German "Christoph Gärtner" auction on SAN. From the description you'd think this was a Roosevelt proof, 235P2. But the margins are too narrow for that. The margins look more like a 235P2a but those are most often on yellowed paper (though not always). The bottom edge is rough which further confuses me. Any thoughts? I couldn't find any other proofs or essays to match in Scott. Here's the description from the auction house (1893, Columbus 6c. violet blue imperforate PROOF on thin white wove ungummed paper)


Send note to Staff

Pillar Of The Community
United States
547 Posts
Posted 02/21/2018   7:32 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jaxom100 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It is a beautiful stamp.

I know nothing on the proofs, so no comment there.
But I am waiting for some responses to soak up more info.


Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
852 Posts
Posted 02/22/2018   11:12 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add chipg to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
you might ask Jim Lee. He's the essay and proof expert.
http://jameslee.com
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
962 Posts
Posted 02/22/2018   1:15 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't know about proofs from the Columbian era, but I've studied some earlier ones. One key clue is that the item is not in the issued color - thus Trial Color proof of some sort. Just from memory, I want to say that both the Roosevelts and Pan-Pacifics tended to be pulled in a color at least close to the issued stamp color. Unless the Columbians are different, I'd hedge against either of those for this.

Interesting item by the way - I can understand why you took a shot at it.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by txstamp - 02/22/2018 1:16 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Germany
876 Posts
Posted 02/22/2018   2:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
what did Gärtner tell you about this? Had they any background or reasons for defining it as they did? This would be my first step.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
369 Posts
Posted 02/23/2018   2:46 pm  Show Profile Check rlsny's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add rlsny to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks. What I posted is all I have from Gartner. Maybe I can ask them if they have any info. Regarding color I agree that Roosevelts are usually closer to the original colors. I haven't found any Pan Pacific Columbian proofs on line to compare.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
673 Posts
Posted 02/23/2018   6:40 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Stampman2002 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This is the true color, on a card proof, from my collection.





The USPOD had five printings of proofs which were sold to the public in the latter part of the 19th century. These were on both India paper and card. These sold as sets and mailed in specific envelopes designed to hold the proofs. While I do not have an example of the envelope for the Columbian set, here's an example of the envelope used for the first issue proofs, Scott 40-47. The same type of envelope was used for the Columbian series, with printing which would have identified it as such. Here's the envelope:





Comparatively, the designs are a match, so both are complete. The only listed essay for Scott 235 is for an essay which exhibited incomplete design of the horse's head and the four corners. This is ruled out.

There are no trial color proofs listed for this stamp, but there are a series of trial color proofs for the two cent and the four cent listed in Brazer's book on essays. There is a listing for dim dusky blue, which this might be. These, however were printed on thin hard card and you state your example is on thin white wove ungummed paper. That presents a problem.

Given that the color is supposed to be purple, what you likely have is a color changeling on India paper, Scott 235P3. If this is India paper, you should notice that it is very thin, and white. This type of paper was used particularly for proofs as it readily absorbed the ink, providing a clear impression of the stamp and color. These are also plate proofs as an entire plate would be made up and printed, as opposed to a die proof which used a single die to create the image.

It is possible that this is an unlisted trial color variety, which Brazer was unaware of. To determine which it is, you will need an opinion from an expertization service. The best one for this piece would probably be the Philatelic Foundation.

Before doing that, I would do as chipg recommended and contact James Lee. Get his opinion and if he feels it might be a trial color proof, then go with the certificate.

Hope this helps.

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by Stampman2002 - 02/23/2018 7:13 pm
Valued Member
United States
90 Posts
Posted 02/23/2018   9:45 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wkusau to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Fascinating discussion so far. I am amazed at the knowledge shared by this forum. Thanks to everyone that participates.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
369 Posts
Posted 02/23/2018   11:04 pm  Show Profile Check rlsny's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add rlsny to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Stampman. I won't have the stamp in my hands for a couple weeks yet. I will certainly check the paper type then. I think that is going to be a critical part of the answer. I will chime back in then.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
369 Posts
Posted 02/24/2018   4:51 pm  Show Profile Check rlsny's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add rlsny to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Found something interesting. There is a set of Trans-Mississippi proofs that are in the upcoming Kelleher sale that are listed as "printed for a purpose other than placement in a Roosevelt album" with a PF cert. (Lot #1528) I looked up the cert and found one for the 1c. It is cert #528924. Here is the language in the cert: "WE ARE OF THE OPINION THAT
IT IS NOT SCOTT 285P2a, RATHER IT IS A SCOTT 285P2 VARIETY, SMALL DIE PROOF ON WHITE WOVE, BUT PRINTED FOR A PURPOSE OTHER THAN PLACEMENT IN A ROOSEVELT ALBUM"

So it looks like a similar situation. Something resembling a Panama-Pacific proof, but not yellowed. The PF chose calling it a "P2 variety". A possibility.

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
673 Posts
Posted 02/24/2018   8:15 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Stampman2002 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
As I mentioned, there are essays and proofs surfacing in the last few decades which Clarence Brazer was not aware of, and which are not listed in the literature.

As rlsny noted in the Kelleher listing, the existence of such raises questions even for the Philatelic Foundation.

I'm looking forward to finding out what the OP discovers when the proof is in hand.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
369 Posts
Posted 03/13/2018   3:53 pm  Show Profile Check rlsny's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add rlsny to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
So I received the stamp today. Here's what I can see:

- margins are 2-2.7mm - similar to the Panama-Pacific Proofs. Too small for Roosevelts
- paper is off-white - not lily white and not really yellowed either
- it does appear to be wove paper as was used in both Roosevelt and Panama-Pacific proofs

This article: https://siegelauctions.com/enc/p2a.htm

describes research showing that stamps similar to the Panama-Pacifics were made after 1914 in small numbers.

Since the color doesn't match the regular Columbian 6 cent it could have been a color test print that was put aside and not used in an album.

So, my understanding is that this might be either a color test for the Panama-Pacifics or somewhat more likely, a later proof printed for an unknown reason.

Condition-wise: The image is super sharp and the color is a somewhat brighter and darker blue than shown in the auction scan. The bottom edge is rough - not sure what that means. Stamp seems sound - no thins. There is a light hinge mark.

I'm quite happy with the purchase even not really being sure what I've got. I might bring it to the PF at some point but I have a feeling there is just limited information available to base a identification on.

fresh scan:

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by rlsny - 03/13/2018 4:01 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United States
962 Posts
Posted 03/13/2018   4:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Nice item.
Small die Trial Color proof of some sort seems to apply, which would be consistent with the post 1915 printings that Ronald Burns refers to.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
United States Postal Service, Now on eBay!Promoting the integrity of internet philatelic dealers. Please join us so buyers can buy with confidence.Bid Online on Live auctions. Stamps, Coins, Fine Art, Jewelery, Collectibles, Antique, Furniture, Wines & Spirits, Collector Cars, Fashion.Genuine H.E. Harris products and quality postage stamps at www.whitman.com. POSTAGE STAMPS, STAMP ALBUMS & ANNUAL SUPPLEMENTS!What's on your wall? Check out our handmade, screen printed stamp art. Perfect for your collector room, office and more. Buy online today!
New Forum TopicsRecently Active Forum Topics
  NFLD Scott 262 - Boy do I ever need your guys opinion
  US Stamp Give-Away (July 2018, #2)
  American Prisoner in London 1777
  Dennison hinges, package for sale
  Stamp Mount Sizing Gauge
  Scott 687 - Looking for a possible 2nd oddity.
  Scott 720 color variance
  My Delcampe Store Re-Opened. 4,000 cover lots listed at $1.99 ea.
  I want to sell postal stamps from Croatia.
  G.B. 3 x Penny red perf 14 stamps - Anything special here?
  reason for revenue stamps with two sides imperforate
  Does anyone know if these are listed in Scott?
  I'm looking for an information and investment partner in the authentication in the So.Cal.
  Norway Land of the Norge
  SC 599a $1.00 Vancouver with short $ flaw
  Gerald King "Wonderland" fantasy cinderellas:
  Selling on the Internet ,has changed
  Can anyone ID this battleship canx?
  Help Identify Stamp?
  Does Scott have a Fuzzy Category???
  question on address for 2 covers
  Can you read Yukoslavian Handwritten Cursive? from 1937? Postcard
  Please change my avatar to posted picture.
  Need help to identify color on Switzerland Scott # 50
  Is this a rare Switzerland Scott # 66 Used?

  Barcelona & Catalonia Cinderellas
  American Prisoner in London 1777
  NFLD Scott 262 - Boy do I ever need your guys opinion
  PF Certifies "Continental" after Feb 3rd 1879
  US Stamp Give-Away (July 2018, #2)
  Honoring Military Service
  The Stamps of Australia : On Steiner Pages.
  Canada Stamps : On Steiner pages.
  Can you read Yukoslavian Handwritten Cursive? from 1937? Postcard
  reason for revenue stamps with two sides imperforate
  Canada stamp giveaway
  1c 1851 Plate 1-Late Stamps
  U.S. Scott 245 and Scott 293 Dealers
  US Stamp Give-Away (July 2018, #1)
  SC 599a $1.00 Vancouver with short $ flaw
  Scott 720 color variance
  The Stamps of Turkey : On Steiner Pages.
  bullseye and socked on nose cancels
  1900s? Best Wishes postcard
  Dennison hinges, package for sale
  G.B. 3 x Penny red perf 14 stamps - Anything special here?
  Tunisia Stamp Engravers
  France stamps of 1900 "type blanc"
  Stamp Mount Sizing Gauge
  values and definition for coil stamps with precancel (1297-1305)

Go to Top of Page
Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Stamp Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2018 Stamp Community Family - All rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Stamp Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Privacy Policy / Terms of Use    Advertise Here
Stamp Community Forum © 2005 - 2018 Coin Community Forums
It took 1.07 seconds to lick this stamp. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05