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Can Somebody Identify This Pair of 3c Stamps Please  
 

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Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 01/12/2018   1:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stampcrow to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
AJ I will try and capture the curl of the stamps I've posted, in the way you have shown above.

I've had a short conversation with member ClassicCoins on this topic. One thing that came up, especially with used stamps, you don't know what they've come in contact with that might affect how they curl.
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Posted 01/12/2018   1:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stampcrow to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have some more known 1851's I will take a closer look at. If they appear different than the one I posted, I will document that here with pictures.
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Posted 01/12/2018   10:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stampcrow to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I took a closer look at three other known 1851 OB stamps. All three show the same paper pattern.

So if I may...or even if I may not, here is my observations from this small sample group.

All four 1851 stamps appear to have the same paper pattern.

also

My undated 10A, Oct. 1855 and Dec. 1857 11A's all have what appears to be the same paper pattern and it's different from the 1851 stamps.

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Edited by stampcrow - 01/12/2018 11:07 pm
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Posted 01/13/2018   10:30 am  Show Profile Check sinclair2010's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add sinclair2010 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
You would have to be really stubbornly resistant to new insights to not acknowledge that at least some of the paper used ca. 1855+ is different and easily distinguishable from paper previously used.

I also have an idea that is somewhere between AJ's handmade paper theory and my machine-made paper theory. Perhaps much of the paper was made on a Cylinder machine and not a Fourdrinier? While the paper would be machine-made and account for the stitch watermarks, the paper would not be expected to curl using AJ's water drop test.
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Posted 01/13/2018   11:17 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stampcrow to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Luckily for me, all insights are 'new'.

I think the paper used for the three cent stamps printed in 1851 show clearly a unique pattern from stamps made later. Every stamp that I have plated 1e, 1i or that have been canceled by either the NY square grid or small Boston paid, show the same paper pattern. A sample size of 10 stamps.

To my eyes there's a vertical pattern to that paper.

Winston, do you have any thoughts about the curling of used stamps when soaked being affected by post production handling.

Edit to add pics and comments.
The stamp below is postmarked Oct. 1858. It is a 26A. This paper looks closer to the pattern of the 1851 stamps than it does the other stamps. Or am I not seeing things incorrectly??


Here is another stamp postmarked Oct. 1858. I'm not sure if it's 26 or 26A. But it sure doesn't appear to be the same paper as the 26A above.
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Edited by stampcrow - 01/13/2018 3:00 pm
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Posted 01/13/2018   5:11 pm  Show Profile Check sinclair2010's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add sinclair2010 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Winston, do you have any thoughts about the curling of used stamps when soaked being affected by post production handling.


Yes, I think things could happen to a stamp in collector hands that might affect the curling or lack thereof. I doubt it accounts for a large percentage of cases though. The way the paper was manufactured is definitely key.
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Posted 01/13/2018   6:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stampcrow to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This is the plate 1e stamp. Wet and flat.


This is an 1857 stamp.
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Posted 01/13/2018   8:24 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stampcrow to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
here are the two 1858 postmarked stamps I showed in the ealier pics. I shot them side by side for visual comparison.
You'll have a very hard time convincing me these stamps are printed on the same paper.

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Edited by stampcrow - 01/13/2018 8:30 pm
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Posted 01/14/2018   10:53 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add AJ Valente to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I'm a color specialist too. Here's my color study for 1857-1858. It is too big for one photo. Image quality not too good, but you get the picture. I have these for the 1851's too.







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Posted 01/14/2018   10:58 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add AJ Valente to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Winston, so far as your question about the papers of 1858, I have to defer for the present as the dozen or so documents from the Crane Museum haven't been published yet. For now, let it be known that half the paper used in 1858 came from Willcox, and the other half from Crane. Crane used a cylinder-wire machine and the Willcox paper was made by hand.
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Posted 01/14/2018   11:18 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add AJ Valente to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Now that we seem to be making some progress on the subject, I'll give you some background history. There was a revolution of sorts in machine-made paper in the late 1830s, and by the early 1840s almost all the hand paper mills were out of business. Remember the Rittenhouse Mill, the one pictured on a post card? The Rittenhouse family went out of the papermaking business around 1800, and thereafter they leased the mill. The Rittenhouse Mill went out of business in 1854.

Anyway, equipment suppliers of belts and wires for the paper industry had previously imported fine woven mats from England and France for the hand industry. After 1840 demand fell off, and so these were replaced by inexpensive mats made in America. These new mats were made by the same who manufactured machine belts, and in some instances the mats contained stitch marks.

Here's an illustration of how the new mats with stitches (a.) may have appeared in hand mills during the 1840s-1860s.


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Posted 01/14/2018   12:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stampcrow to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I feel as though I'm getting in the way, but it's a public forum so Ill continue to post here.


Quote:
For now, let it be known that half the paper used in 1858 came from Willcox, and the other half from Crane. Crane used a cylinder-wire machine and the Willcox paper was made by hand.


You say half and half, so they actually had equal contracts for number of sheets provided?
My thought was the printers contracted with a single paper manufacturer that sometimes couldn't provide enough product. That caused the printers to shore up their supply on the open market.

Do you think the two 1858 stamps I have pictured illustrate the two different papers used?
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Edited by stampcrow - 01/14/2018 12:53 pm
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Posted 01/14/2018   1:38 pm  Show Profile Check sinclair2010's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add sinclair2010 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
AJ, I can deduce from your last few posts that you believe one of the 1858 stamps you showed in your paper curl test was printed on paper made by Crane's Cylinder type machine and the other one was printed on a handmade paper produced by Wilcox. Which of them are you saying curls in water? I say neither should curl, so what gives?
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Posted 01/16/2018   11:51 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add AJ Valente to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
StampCrow.

In those days there was no official paper contract--the first documented paper contract didn't occur until 1893 when the BEP took over as principal.

Now, I can't get too deep into the weeds on this subject, except to say that following my article (AP Nov. 2001) I had worked with Wilson Hulme on the relationship between the introduction of perforation and the resulting paper change that occurred in 1859.

As it happened, the inconsistency of thickness in handmade papers caused problems in the perforation machine, and this became the main cause of all the blind perfs and hanging chads seen during this period.

In late 1857 came a trial of Crane paper on the 1c Plate 5, with the purpose being to determine whether the consistency of thickness of machine-made paper might resolve the problem with perforation. And it did.

Deliveries of Crane paper during 1858 amounting to about 400,000 sheets. The problem is, the printer required some 100,000 sheets per month. It turns out the quality of the follow-on deliveries from Crane were not up to the standards with regard to impression quality and the papermaker was unceremoniously dropped as a supplier.

Thus, during 1858 two kinds of paper were used, handmade and machinemade. From 1859 and-on, a machinemade Willcox paper was used.

So, to answer your question, you need to determine whether the curled-up stamp of yours was printed in 1858, or 1859-61. Any 1857 stamps that do not curl come from 1857-1858 exclusively.
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Posted 01/16/2018   3:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add AJ Valente to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Winston,

I'll repeat the quote from Dr. Dard Hunter, Papermaking:

"Provided precisely the same stock is used, the greatest advantage in quality handmade paper would have over paper formed on the machine would be that the fibers of handmade paper are shaken four ways, causing them to cross and intertwine in formation. On the travelling wire of the machine the course of the fibers is limited to the side-to-side shake, which has the tendency to throw the fibrous material in one direction only. . . . "

What Dr. Hunter is saying is, for handmade paper, the mold is shaken both horizontally and vertically, thus the fibers achieve a more random pattern. Since the fibers don't line up predominantly in one direction or the other, the paper has no grain pattern. This is why handmade stamp paper resists curling.

On the paper machine the pulp is spread over a wire that is in continuous motion. For cylinder-wire machines the primary wire is wrapped in a cylinder, and for the Fourdrinier the primary wire is a continuous belt (aka moving wire) where the chassis is shaken as the belt moves along. The result is that fibers tend to line-up in the direction of motion. That is what is called the paper grain. The paper tends to resist tearing against the grain, and tears more easily going with the grain.

In the 1857 issue, for instance, fibers lining up in the vertical direction cause the paper to curl in the horizontal direction because that's the natural weakness.

Here's another test. Remember the prior conversation about vertical stitch watermarks in banknote papers? If you take a banknote stamp and moisten it, it will naturally curl in the vertical direction. That is because the direction of motion is changed and the fibers now line up in the horizontal direction. BTW, for some reason I've had better luck moistening these stamps on printed side (i.e not the blank side).
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Edited by AJ Valente - 01/16/2018 3:08 pm
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