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24c Continential Banknote Scott #164

 
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Posted 02/18/2013   12:11 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Len to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello all and happy President's day to you.

I need the 24 cent Scott, Scott #164 1873 to complete my Continential Banknote series. Here's my problem:

When I look in Scott's 2011 BNA book it lists the following numbers for this purple, 24c stamp - 142,153,164, 175 and 200.

When I look below to find the catalog value of # 264, the listing skips this number. It goes from #163 to #165 (15c to 30c). When I search on e-bay, I never pull up a #164.

What am I missing? Is this a very rare stamp?

Thanks all and please advise,
Len
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Posted 02/18/2013   12:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stallzer to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That is because there is only 1 certified copy of a Scott 164. It is on vertically ribbed paper.
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Edited by stallzer - 02/18/2013 12:22 pm
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Posted 02/18/2013   12:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Len to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Well, that certainly explains it.

Thanks Stallzer, much appreciated.
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Posted 02/18/2013   12:30 pm  Show Profile Check Rileysan's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Rileysan to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
What am I missing? Is this a very rare stamp?


As Stallzer stated, there is only one certified copy.

I don't know the history of the ribbed paper variety, but the Continental issue cannot be differentiated from 153. When Continental took over the the contract, there were no changes made to the die (IE secret mark), nor were there color or paper changes.

Hopefully Russ can jump in and give us the history of the ribbed paper variety.

Brian
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Edited by Rileysan - 02/18/2013 12:31 pm
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Posted 02/18/2013   2:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Russ to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
First, let me apologize for this being a lengthy post.

The 24¢ Continental printing is extremely confusing at best. In January 1873 the stamp contract was awarded to the Continental Bank Note Company which took effect May 1, 1873. The contract required Continental to have "on hand in the company's vault, on that date…a sufficient supply of stamps, approved and accepted by the Stamp Agent, as complying with the terms of manufacture, quality of product, etc. to meet all foreseeable withdrawals of stamps…This to apply to ALL denominations…"

In April 1873 all of National's dies and plates were turned over to Continental. Continental modified the 1¢ through 15¢ dies with the "secret marks" but the 24¢, 30¢ and 90¢ values were printed from the National plates. Since the 3 highest values had the lowest production requirements they were probably the first values put to press to meet the contract requirements for stock on hand. They were possibly printed while the dies for the lower values were being modified and the new plates being made.

The number printed is unknown but in September 1873 the Continental inventory showed that they had 120,700 in the vault. John Luff stated that Continental printed and released to the stamp agent 365,000 but this figure is disputed by many as some of this number would have been purchased after the discontinuation of the 24¢ rate in 1875. It is also believed that the PO agent, Boyd, arranged for much of the remaining stock in National's vaults to be sold to the POD probably in late 1873 or early 1874. This stock is thought to have been then transferred to Continental for credit.

Records show that National released 787,050 24¢ stamps to the stamp agent from April 1870 to April 30, 1875. Continental released 557,150 to the stamp agent from July 1873 to June 30, 1875. It is also known that in February 1885 the Post Office Department destroyed 364,950 24¢ stamps which was probably a mixture of 1861 issues and the banknotes. So nobody really knows how many 24¢ Continentals were printed and sold.

The 30¢ and 90¢ Continentals can be distinguished from the Nationals by color but the 24¢ probably used the same ink formulation on both the National and Continental issues due to the problems experienced with the purple ink. Bear in mind that when the contract was awarded to Continental both Charles Steel, supervisor of stamp production, and James Macdonough left National and went to Continental. They would have been keenly aware of the 24¢ color problems.

When National first printed the 24¢ they encountered numerous problems with the color as detailed in the following communications between the Post Office Department and the National Bank Note Co.:

To National Bank Note Company
Post-Office Department,
Office of Third Assistant Postmaster-General
Washington, D. C., April 6, 1870
Sir: The color selected and agreed upon for the twenty-four cent stamp, new series, was a pure purple. The gummed and perforated specimen received to-day from the stamp agent is altogether unlike and inferior in color, as you will observe by comparing the proofs with the gummed and perforated specimens. The color last referred to is the poorest I ever saw; it looks like poke-berry juice after a hard rain. Please investigate at once, and by all means let us have the pure purple equal to the proof-samples. Mr. Boyd has been instructed by telegraph not to issue any of the twenty-four cent stamps of the defective color.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
W. H. H. Terrell,
Third Assistant Postmaster-General.
J. Macdonough, Esq.,
Secretary National Bank Note Company, New York.


From National Bank Note Company
National Bank Note Company
New York, April 9, 1870
Dear Sir: Your communication of 6th instant came duly to hand, and would have been immediately acknowledged but that it was thought best to ascertain the reasons for the marked difference in color between the proofs and impressions.
We find that all the carmine tints are injured by the heat of the drying-rooms and the action of the acid of the gum; and the result was shown very unfavorably for us, on the six and twenty-four cent stamps.
Since the receipt of your letter we have worked all of the doubtful colors very carefully and we have got them like the colors on the accepted proofs; we will forward you early next week impressions all gummed and perforated, showing the improved colors.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
J. Macdonough, Secretary
Hon. W. H. H. Terrell
Third Assistant Postmaster-General, Washington, D. C


To National Bank Note Company
Post-Office Department,
Office of Third Assistant Postmaster-General
Washington, D. C., April 11, 1870
Sir: The following telegram was this day sent you:
"The Department confidently relies upon the production by your company of the new series postage-stamps, as regards colors and gumming, in a manner that will reflect credit upon the Government and give satisfaction to the public. The engraved proofs submitted are fully approved. Please see that there is no fault in gum or colors. To-morrow, the 12th, was agreed upon, when you and agent Boyd were here, for the new issue to be made. Are you ready? Our arrangements are complete for announcing the change from present to new series by telegraph, and the Postmaster-General expects it to be done to-morrow. Please inform me by telegraph when we can safely make the announcement."
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
W. H. H. Terrell,
Third Assistant Postmaster-General.
J. Macdonough, Esq.,
Secretary National Bank Note Company,
No. 1 Wall Street, New York.


From National Bank Note Company
National Bank Note Company
New York, April 12, 1870
Dear Sir: Your dispatch of yesterday reached here last evening after business hours. We have to-day telegraphed you in reply: "All the stamps are ready for delivery, excepting the twelve and twenty-four-cent, and they will be in a few days."
We could not give a definite answer to your question as to when you could safely announce the stamps would be issued; for we found some of the denominations have already been sent out, quite to our surprise, and under the following circumstances: Agent Boyd having received an immense order for stamps some days ago, advised the Department that it was impossible to fill it without issuing some of the new stamps, and received in reply, we understand, that when he could not supply old stamps to give the new; and under those instructions the order was filled, some of the new stamps going out on Saturday last, and more since. Agent Boyd is sending out six-cent stamps instead of twelve-cent, and old twenty-four-cents instead of new.
We are experimenting with the twelve and twenty-four-cent stamps, and hope to-day or to-morrow to succeed in the color.
Yours, very respectfully,
A. D. Shepard, Treasurer.
Hon. W. H. H. Terrell
Third Assistant Postmaster-General, Washington, D. C.


From National Bank Note Company
National Bank Note Company
New York, April 16, 1870
Dear Sir: To get a purple tint for the twenty-four-cent stamp, which would remain purple after undergoing the heat of the drying-room and action of the acid of the gum, has caused a very severe trial of your patience.
We have tried all the pure color, and combinations of colors, some even at a cost of $24 per pound, (or sixty cents per 1,000 stamps for color only.) We inclose (sic) two half sheets, marked Nos. 1 and 2, which differ from the sample tint, but are brilliant and seem to promise well; all the others change so much that they would not be satisfactory to you. If either of these is acceptable, please telegraph the number of the sheet, and we will print them at once.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
J. Macdonough, Secretary
Hon. W. H. H. Terrell,
Third Assistant Postmaster-General, Washington, D. C.


From D. M. Boyd, stamp-agent

United States Postage-Stamp and Envelope Agency
New York, April 18, 1870
Sir: Inclosed (sic) please find a sheet of twenty-four cent stamps submitted, as near like the specimen as the contractors think they can be produced. If acceptable, the full series can be issued by Monday, the 25th instant, not before, as this color takes much longer to dry than any of the others.
I send to-day to all the offices requiring twelve-cent stamps that have been detained, and I am ready to issue that denomination on future orders.
Respectfully yours,
D. M. Boyd, Agent
Hon. W. H. H. Terrell,
Third Assistant Postmaster-General, Washington, D. C.

To National Bank Note Company
Post-Office Department,
Office of Third Assistant Postmaster-General
Washington, D. C., Mau 2, 1870
Sir: The following telegram was sent you this morning: "General Terrell accepts sample No. 2 as color for the twenty-four-cent stamps."
To prevent mistakes, I herewith inclose (sic) some stamps taken from the sheet submitted by you.
Very respectfully,
W. M. Ireland,
Acting Third Assistant Postmaster-General
J. Macdonough, Esq.,
Secretary National Bank Note Company, New York

From National Bank Note Company
National Bank Note Company
New York, April 19, 1870
Dear Sir: We are in receipt of your favor of 18th instant, and telegram of this date, informing us that "General Terrell accepts sample No. 2 as color for twenty-four-cent stamps."
We shall immediately proceed with the printing, and will furnish proof-sheets of this stamp, in the No. 2 color, to your Department soon as they can be prepared, to be used instead of the proofs you now have.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
J. Macdonough, Secretary
W. M. Ireland, Esq.,
Acting Third Assistant Postmaster-General, Washington, D. C.


With the above mentioned color issues with the 24¢ stamp I doubt that Continental would have made changes to the ink.

So, since the 24¢ Continental and National printings were from the same plate and probably with the same ink formulation the only method of distinguishing the printings would be either the Continental ribbed paper or the Continental silk fiber paper which is not recognized as a Continental printing distinction on the 24¢ by Scott.
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Posted 02/18/2013   3:00 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Add to the above that the already volatile purple shades have now had almost 140 years to continue to change and fade based on the treatment of each individual example, so even if they started out a bit different at the time it would be impossible to separate them by shade now.
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Posted 02/18/2013   3:08 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add matttodd1 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I've always been intrigued by this question - thanks very much Russ!

Matt
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Posted 02/18/2013   4:03 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add I_Love_Stamps to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
You can always buy a proof!

Here is my scott #164P4
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Posted 02/18/2013   5:18 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Len to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Russ, thank you so much for taking the time and effort to educate us. Your write-up was utterly fascinating!
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Posted 02/18/2013   5:28 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add tomiseksj to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This thread peaked my curiosity so I went to the Philatelic Foundation database and looked up the certificate. In case anyone was wondering what the stamp looked like, here is an image of the 164:

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Posted 02/18/2013   5:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This is NOT one of the scans that I did. Mine were much neater. :-)
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Posted 02/18/2013   5:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Russ to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
A little about the Continental ribbed paper. There is much debate about the origins of the ribbed paper with the 3 most common explanations being:
1. an anomaly from the steam press
2. a design left from the batting or printing blankets
3. an mechanical wire or thread wrapped ribbing roller.

Unfortunately, I know of only 1 examination of a large sample size on ribbed paper. Wiley examines a sample of 121 ribbed paper examples of the 3 cent Continental in 1913. A few of his observations;
17 of 121 (14%) were vertically ribbed the remaining 104 (86%) were horizontally ribbed.
92 of 121 (76%) were of the deep olive green color.
Average paper thickness was .00265 (.0673mm) with 80% between .0025(.0635mm) and .0028(.0711mm).
The ribs have a relatively consistent spacing of .025 (.635mm) on both the vertical and horizontal ribbed examples.

Since there was significant variation in ink colors throughout the printing, the fact that 76% represent one distinct shade indicates that the printing was probably over a short time period. Wiley believed that the ribbed paper was probably used early in the contract. Based on the color he believed that the printing occurred between May and December 1873.

The paper was most likely purposefully mechanically ribbed based on Wiley's observations of design average size;
Horizontally ribbed .784(19.913mm) wide by .985(25.019mm) high.
Vertically ribbed .773(19.634mm) wide by .997(25.324mm) high.

If a ribbing roll were used in the manufacture of the paper it would result in the ribs being parallel to the direction of rolling. Since paper shrinkage is greater perpendicular to the direction of rolling we would expect to see vertically ribbed paper being narrower and horizontally ribbed paper being shorter. Additionally the dimensional difference is 1.2% on the height and 1.4% on the width which is fairly consistent with paper shrinkage.
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Posted 02/18/2013   10:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add robjette to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Extremely fascinating read. Thanks to everyone for the research and information. I'm a new collector, and it's this kind of attention to detail that has me hooked. Good stuff!
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Posted 02/22/2013   11:14 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add I_Love_Stamps to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I gotta wonder how many scott #175's are out there and how to ID it? Could you just imagine finding one of those?

After thinking about it one would almost have to find one still on cover with traces of some sort of DIY adhesive. Or to find a copy with the margin writing on it. All are P 12 but it has hard white paper and no gum as issued. Fat chance of that happening huh? ha-ha
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Edited by I_Love_Stamps - 02/22/2013 11:17 am
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