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Type 1A Vs Type 1: Characteristics Of #500 Vs 499

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Posted 10/17/2015   6:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add lukusw to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
There has been multiple conversations about distinguishing #500 vs the common #499. I've been looking into this myself, and am going to try to put what I've read together in one spot. Credit goes fully to the much more experienced and knowledgeable members who have shared these great details. My disclaimer is that I am only an amateur collector and do not yet even own a #500. For some reason, between my wife and my daughter, the money keeps disappearing. Please correct anything you feel is inaccurate.

The difficulty here seems to be that although there are obvious #499s and obvious #500s, there also is an overlap that seems somewhat subjective. The color is Deep Rose. However, colors are near impossible to nail down with certainty over the internet, and there are multiple shades of #499s. I will not be using color in the considerations below.

We will start with the obvious:

http://www.stampsmarter.com/1847usa...cType1a.html provides a great primer on the traits of Type Ia. It boils down to: Same as Type 1, EXCEPT:

1. "The line at the top of the toga rope is well defined and sharp. The lines of the rope are consistent and do not seem to change in width from the toga rope into the toga itself. This is a defining feature of the Type Ia"

2. "The lines in the toga button are well defined and sharp. In particular, the top outline of the toga button is complete. This is a defining feature of the Type Ia stamp"

They also mention the white line under the ear being less distinct than Type 1, but I don't include that because my review of multiple certified #500s (courtesy of Siegel Auctions website) shows many that are just as prominent as #499s.

They also mention "The line to the immediate right of the fold in the ribbon appears either solid or partially broken" in Type Ia. Types II and III have broken or dashed line there, and in Type I the line is very faint and seems to usually be absent.

Now some photos. These are all off the internet, so I cannot control the quality.


Clear #500 example. Certified.


Clear #499 example. Certified.

The areas that seem to differentiate Type I vs Ia are highlighted in the #500 example:

Certified #500.

Certified #499.

1. Single line in curve of ribbon (same in both types)
2. Upper line of rope and vertical lines in rope are heavy and consistent
3. Border of toga button is heavy
4. Vertical line after first curve in right ribbon is visible and is solid or nearly so
5. Partial mark of a 2nd line in the curve of the left ribbon.

#2&3 are what most people seem to base their ID of a #500. But this is where I've seen subjectivity, especially with the rope marks. See below.

#5 was talked about in a very informative link below:
http://srailstamps.com/scott-500-2c...sitions.html (click on the photos below the stamps to read the text) Basically, the author argued that the #500s have a tiny dot or dash in this position (the line is complete in Type III). There is no trace of this in the #499s. I do not have the expertise to say whether any #500s DON'T have this.

Certified #500. Note the inconsistent vertical lines in the rope, and weaker appearance of the top line of the rope (#2). BUT the button outline is relatively heavy (#3) and there seems to be a faint dot in the curve of the left ribbon (#5).

Certified #500. Note the rope lines again are inconsistent, BUT the rope button outline is RELATIVELY solid (relative to the rest of the rope)(#3), the vertical line in first curve of the left ribbon is solid (#4), and a dot is visible in the space of the 2nd line in the left ribbon 2nd curve (#5).

To confound things, there is what some call a "Full Type I", which can mimic a Type Ia. Below is a photo courtesy of Disi123 from a previous post:





Note the toga button outline is less prominent than the rope lines (#3), the vertical line in the left ribbon 1st curve is broken (#4), and there is no hint of a mark in the 2nd line space of the 2nd curve of the left ribbon (#5).

So, to me it seems that the most consistent traits of Type Ia vs I are:
#3: Toga button outline is heavy RELATIVE to the heaviness of the rope lines
AND
#5: Presence of a mark in the 2nd line space of the 2nd curve of the left ribbon

Slightly less consistent are:
#2: Toga rope lines are heavy and consistent
AND
#4: Vertical line after 1st curve of the left ribbon is solid

All Type Ia will have a solid top rope line (but some Type I appear to as well)

Just to finish with confusion, here is a certified #500 that using the above criteria seems to be a #499 except that the Toga button outline is solid comparable to the other markings. It also has the overall "deeper lines" consistent with a Type Ia. If I saw this one online, I would assume it was #499 and pass it up...but that's why I don't offer expertizing.

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Edited by lukusw - 10/17/2015 6:36 pm

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Posted 10/17/2015   7:42 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add KGB to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
A very nice presentation!
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Posted 10/19/2015   10:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Historical DNA Collector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
lukusw,
Good presentation, but I want to add a few things. The small line fragments can occur in the left, right, or both ribbons.


These can also occur on Type I stamps, but rarely do so. They are seen on most #500's. Just like with any issued stamp, some prints might be weak and plates continually undergo wear as they are used. Sometimes it is difficult if not impossible to see them on one or both sides. As with most varieties, strong examples of a particular type are more desirable. If a stamp's details are too weak to be clearly a Type Ia, then most will consider it as a Type I.

Follow this link to see some examples of weak Type Ia and strong Type I: http://goscf.com/t/46211&whichpage=2#394212
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Ryan = HDNAC = DNA = HDC = Hysterical DNA Collector = Historical DNA Collector = me who just loves stamps :)
Edited by Historical DNA Collector - 10/19/2015 10:35 pm
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Posted 10/21/2015   10:32 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lukusw to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Historical DNA Collector,

Thank you for the additional info and corrections. I had not found data on whether those marks were exclusive to Ia, but had not run across them on the Type I yet.
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Posted 06/05/2017   6:08 pm  Show Profile Check rlmstamps2012's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add rlmstamps2012 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Excellent!

I have read many threads regarding this issue. Thanks for helping to turn the lights on.

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Posted 06/05/2017   9:00 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add GrandpaJohn to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yo, Historical DNA Collector, what book did this info you posted the image of come from - the 499-500 ribbons etc? It appears to be a very good book to add to ones library. Thx
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Posted 06/05/2017   9:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Al E. Gator to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
From The United States Specialist, the journal of the United States Stamp Society, Feb. 1998 issue.
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Posted 06/06/2017   09:38 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Lioness2 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Wonderful information provided by guests! love the charting and comparison of photographs!
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Posted 06/06/2017   11:59 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Newby Stamper to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Wow!!. Nice work there lukusw!! Also HDNA and Mr.Gator for the addition. A really great thread people. I'm sure this with help a lot of the newbies and even the not so new.
A lot of very knowledgeable here that are willing to help out and give advice.
Thanks to all of you!!
Newby
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Posted 06/08/2017   9:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lukusw to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for the nice words, everyone. Our hobby is such a visual one, but I felt like so often the vernacular and descriptions used are obtuse and sometimes straight up confounding. Looking at a bunch of certified Type Ia's online really helped.
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Posted 06/09/2017   05:34 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add angore to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the primer and I have tried and see wonder about degrees to define which is which.
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Al
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Posted 07/12/2017   09:28 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello, after looking at many many "2 Cents 2" stamps I think I finally found my first 500 - what do you think?

Many of the criteria mentioned above seem to fit. Only the left ribbon is not visible at all because of the cancellation.

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Posted 07/13/2017   12:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I forgot to show the whole stamp, here it is, as well as a detail photo of the right ribbon.

For me the toga button is bold, there is a dot in the right ribbon. What I find special is also the hair are all over more pronounced, all hair a bit bolder. I didn't find this in 500 definitions.

So could this stamp come close to a 500?



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Posted 07/13/2017   7:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
stamperix, yes, that's a #500. I think the hair is bolder because you have a sharper/cleaner print from a clean printing plate. Everything is sharper compared to the certified one above; that one is more heavily inked.
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Posted 07/14/2017   03:28 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That's good to read that you also confirm my thoughts about a 500, thank you. Great to have this stamp at last in my album. About the hair you're correct, still when I look at Siegel examples of 499 and 500, mostly the 500 have much bolder hair and in some areas more hair than the 499. But this is "mostly" the case, so probably not enough to get a definition difference between the two.
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Posted 07/14/2017   04:20 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The button recutting is the main thing, I feel. Then I'd go for the other points to confirm. I agree with lukusw about missing the identification on the one with the certificate; so easy to miss without a careful look. Still, there's a full outline to the button with further strengthening from the 3 o'clock to 7 o'clock positions.

Now the toga line in yours looks like some of the stronger ones on type Is, but the really high magnification you gave shows it is complete. Well done!
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