1861-1867 8 Cent Rate??

Any thoughts on this eight cent intrastate rate in California?? The distance is something like 70 miles from what I can tell.

I thought the first class rate was 3 cents, 6 cents double weight, 9 cents triple weight. Not sure why this is 8 cents.

The stamps have no grill, and there are no reverse markings. Should be from the 1861-1867 era.

I'd like to see a huge blow-up of just the two stamps.

As requested, blow-up of the stamps. Any information is appreciated.

Thanks - no closer to the answer about 8 cents.

No 8c rate that I know of. Either a 2c overpayment of a double rate cover, a weird attempt to pay the old 5c registration fee with a stamp (which you couldn't do, and the 5c registration fee went up many years before this cover was sent), or the 5c stamp was applied later by someone who thought it would make a common cover more valuable.

I'd vote for the overpayment of the second 1/2 oz rate. However, still not a good explanation.
C.

Nothing tying either of the Stamps to the cover.

Exactly. This just screams "FAKE".

Note the inconsistent manuscript strikes. One stamp has three, nearly full-length strikes - each with a sort of "hook" at the end of each line, while the other has two, short strikes. Neither stamp is tied to the cover.

Every time I see something like this, I fantasize about meeting the perpetrator. 'nuff said

Brian

Plus, with a beautiful circular date stamp cancel, why didn't the clerk put it ON the stamps? I doubt if this post office was very busy.

Since I can look at the cover with a magnifying glass, at different light angles. etc. I will explain why I think it is not a forgery.

The stamps themselves are real. No question about that.

Having a circular city/date postmark and a pen cancellation is not that unusual for this era. Rare, but there are plenty of examples out there.

The pen cancellations where made by the same pen (same shade, width, hook at end, etc.). All five marks.

These stamps are worth much, much more unused than on cover. Why would I take two new stamps, and then use a pen cancellation, and not tie them to the cover if I am a forger? When they are worth much less on cover?

Both origin and destination were gold mining towns in the 1860s, so a letter would seem period-correct. The envelope has a small tear, and and back-flap problems.

The postmark looks genuine, but if not, if I am a forger, why would I not cancel the stamps with the fake postmark to make it look more typical?.

I guess someone could have taken a cover with something like a three cent locomotive (not tied to the envelope), removed the stamp, and put these stamps on. But as noted above, why, since it is worth less than the unused stamps? And I doubt someone had two used, non-tied stamps with the same type of pen cancellation, and put them on this envelope, but I guess this is possible.

I guess someone could have added the five cent stamp and then matched the pen cancellation of the three cent stamp, but I'm not sure why.

If someone can provide a logical scenario for a forgery, please do. I don't plan on selling this, but I would like to mark it as a forgery if it really is one.

The 5c stamp could very well have been added. In the scan you show (which isn't that great), the pen strokes don't look that similar to me. Sometimes fakes are exposed because the rate is not correct. Overpayment is also a very real possibility.

Who are you going to trust here at the SCF well enough to mark your own cover a forgery??????

Agreed - that would probably be the best explanation if it is a fake. Can't really do a good picture when you are limited to 100kb - all five lines appear to be made from the same pen if I look at it through a magnifying glass - same narrowing at ends, shade, etc. The bottom/right line on the five cent does have a hook at the top too.

I'd be interested to see Brian's thoughts, since he is the one that brought up the issue of it being a fake.

I would just write something like "forgery" on the reverse of the cover if it is a fake.

the 5 cent stamp does not belong on this cover.
several things.. the stamp is on top of the name.. see the bottom left corner.. people didn't normally put stamps on top of their own writing, especially when there is plenty of space for the stamp.
The pen cancellations are not the same..

I think someone took a pen cancelled stamp and pasted it on the cover.

So the forger had a pen canceled five stamp with a very similar cancellation (which he had to up on upside down for a reasonable match)? Just to make a forgery with an overpaid rate?

The three cent stamp is almost touching the dot in the last "i" - it could have been placed much more to the top right as well.

I guess I'm not convinced enough to write forgery on the back yet.

It is very tough to tell if the quill and ink strike-throughs are from the same quill or not. Under magnification, you can see a tiny hook at the right/bottom five cent line at the top of the line, just like the one in the three cent stamp.

I don't think I was speaking plainly enough. I would urge you to not write anything on the cover.

If the 5c stamp was added it would be a whole lot better to take it off than ruin the cover. California covers command a premium.

There is absolutely nothing suspicious about the CDS stamp or the pen cancel not tying the 3c stamp, or the 5c stamp (if it originated on the cover).

Right - I was just going to write something in light pencil on the back. It is a little suspicious, but could very well be a genuine overpaid double rate. Or someone added the five cent stamp. A pen cancel with a CDS is a bit odd - they are usually with a manuscript postmark - but examples can be found.

I don't think I will ever know if it is real or not, unless someone can show me a similar fake.

Pen cancellation of the stamps is not that unusual for California covers.

California was poorly served by the Post Office Department, leading to the establishment of all of the Western Express companies. Although it was better by the mid-1860s, rural post offices would not have had that much volume. And, unless the office did more than $200 per year in business, the postmaster would have had to pay for his own cancellation devices (including the datestamp).

As for another comment - stamps often were put over the writing. I have many examples of such.

Lastly, the rules said that the datestamp was to be applied AWAY from the stamp. Just like on this cover. I did a search and found a couple of c1860 Maricopa covers with the same circular datestamp - one with a pen cancellation, the other with the datestamp on the stamp (rules were not always followed). Neither had the stamp cancelled by a "killer."

The ONLY question on this cover is whether the 5c stamp was applied by the sender, or if a pen-cancelled 5c stamp was added at a later time. Everything else is absolutely fine. Nothing else is even close to being questionable.

If you want to put the effort into verifying the 5c stamp's belonging, start by putting it under a black light. That should point out if the ink on the two stamps is the same. If they glow the same, it's most likely an overpaid double weight cover. If they glow differently, you might want to sweat the 5c stamp off, but leave the rest alone. Remember - rural California in the 1860s - if you didn't have the second 3c stamp and someone was heading to town and you wanted the letter mailed, you might use what you had.