163 Or 189 ?

Viewing secret mark information in Scott 2010,
Scott 2013, the "V" secret mark information
appears to be conflictory. Only the 2013 image
versus prior years is showing the "V" as it
would appear on a 189 (as this image shows) as
a light V forming the normal frame shadowing
in the lower portion of the triangle akin to
the shadowing in the right triangle, and (not)
the strong V as shown in prior years, as the
secret mark for the 163...



Opinions, please...

Positively a 163 (and certed)...

Notice the increased darkening in
the left triangle...



Conclusion : Scott 2013 Image = W-R-O-N-G

And, lo and behold... a Langs listing
for $1,750 for a "163"

http://www.ebay.com/itm/163-VF-OG-L...em20d58a702a

Looks like a pretty high grade example against a cat of $2500. He should get a PSE cert for grade, since a certified SMQ98, if that's what he thinks it is, will net him his asking price and then some. No cert, fugeddaboudit. Certified as a 98 and it is worth a multiple of his asking price - to the

*Pretty high grade 189* (IMHO)

You can't rely on the "secret mark" alone to ID this stamp a lot of the time. More on that subject later as I'm sort of studying this issue at the moment.

The "secret mark" description in the Scott Catalog is quite controversial because initially, the Continental Bank Note Company used the same plates. A 163 can be distinguished from a 189 because it would have hard paper while the 189 whether printed by Continental or American Bank Note Company will be on soft paper. Hard paper will glow more brightly than soft paper under long wave UV light. Also, hard paper is thinner and will not show a "basket weave pattern" when viewed in back light. Use a Scott 210 or other common soft paper stamp for paper comparison. A 163 is usually a darker, but less bright orange than the 152 which has a more intense but lighter color. The National Bank Note 152 will have fine detail in the upper triangles while a 163 will be typically missing some of the fine lines. Hence, the urban legend about the "secret mark". When visible, it is simply the contrast between heavily inked and under inked areas in the fine details of the design. Continental ribbed paper is an exception. All of the detailed lines will be present, but the color is definitely deeper and less bright than the National Bank note product. Another useful thing to know, is that combination killer cancels did not come into use until late in the Continental Bank note period, so anyone offering a New York registry cancel or one with the oval duplex killer bars does not have a 152 even if he says he does.

Clark

That's a nice stamp that Langs has, if it's good I'd suspect it would be graded no higher than a 90.

I recently started a topic showing a picture of hard vs soft paper banknotes when viewed against light they're very easy to differentiate once you know what to look for.

Honestly, I've never really understood why anyone, unless visually impaired, can not easily see the difference between hard and soft paper? And I do not say that with any disrespect whatsoever, but all I had to do was read Brookman's description ONE time and see how soft paper is clearly mottled while hard is not, and presto, it was (and IS) very easy. Then when other simple elements are explained, like hard paper generally being whiter than soft, especially under UV light, etc., it becomes even easier.

Something that needs to be said about secret marks is that they were added to the dies, although there was a time when some students thought they had been individually added to the plates Continental made. But for trying to distinguish secret marks I suggest we stick to proof impressions for die or plate.

I know that Bill Weiss once gave quite a bit of attention to the 15 cent stamps, and could tell us quite a bit about the secret mark, if he was of a mind to. I can help out with some scans of proof material if need be.

Bill,

Me either. Give me a pile of Large Banknotes and a light bulb and I'll have them sorted in seconds.

Essay,

I can't imagine who could have argued that the secret marks were applied to the plates... good god.

Can anybody explain to me WHY there is no "Quick Reply" feature available to me in the thread that Richard started where he thought the 15c Banknote stamp has a double transfer? I examined the scans - at his request - and formed an opinion, which I wanted to post in that thread, but found when I visited it, at the end of the last post (below it) where the "Quick Reply" feature would normally be, there is none! Nor do I see ANY way to reply in that thread? Has it been locked? If so, why? Any advice appreciated.

You were probably temporarily logged out ... just my thoughts.

No, I am logged in. The "Quick Reply" box is present in every thread I look at but that one! Since I am successfully typing this message in THIS thread, I am obviously logged in, yet I do not have the "Quick Reply" box available in that thread. My thought is that maybe the Admin. locked it from further pots for some reason?

if it was an original "coinwatcher" post,
it might be locked...

Bill,

It appears that he's been banned.