Are These Perforations Possible?

Without any evidence of a grill, it is possible that the subject item is a poorly perforated proof with a fake cancel added. in any case it is too small and well centered to be an unaltered 1869 Pictorial issue stamp. Some expertizers call nicely centered but too small Pictorial issue stamps "chop jobs". Many of those are floating around in the marketplace.

Clark

51studebaker is correct.

And that is why I was always against ebay sales controling the value or scarcity of stamps...IMPO

Robert

Once a seller has attained more feedback than any other seller in the Stamps catagory on ebay, then I think you would expect them to not repeatedly sell the same types of problematic material - over and over - despite being informed WHY these things are fake or misdescribed. Making excuses for them by convincing yourself that they are "only running a business" is narrow-minded considering the large amount of bad stuff that inexperinced buyers get stuck with. I'm talking specificaly about things like fake 20th century imperfs (like #534B, for example). How many times does the same seller need to be told that for a 20th century imperf to be considered genuine by expertizers it must measure 21.5mmx25mm or bigger - before we hold that seller accountable the next time he sells the same thing? How many times does a seller need to be told HOW to identify a fake coil before we hold him accountable for the next bad one he sells? So the answer is "shucks, he's just trying to "flip" material. No harm done. Great no hassle return policy". Sure, great return policy **IF** the buyer has enough knowledge to recognize what's wrong with the product! But many do not. And they get stuck. But it's OK. No. it's not OK.

"And that is why I was always against ebay sales controling the value or scarcity of stamps"

It doesn't, especially the scarcity aspect which is really something that most collectors generally assume for themselves based on catalog value, which is a bad way to do it. A true understanding of relative scarcity is any collecting area is only possible by seeing a lot of stamps over the long term.
The same is largely true for valuations, one has to observe the buying and selling of a lot of stamps in all different conditions over time to really get a good feel for what any individual stamp is worth generally, and then they have to filter that through how important that stamp is for them and their particular collection. ebay does not "control" stamp prices, bidders do but only on a lot by lot basis. It's fine as a general guide to common items, but that's all. Prices can and often do fluctuate broadly for similar items in any case.

The picture of the back on the original listing does appear to show a grill. Not sure if it's a "real" grill or not, but it's a grill.....

Sold for $487.95 with 53 bids. IMHO, it appears to be a fairly decent stamp except for the 2 sides that beyond a doubt had been reperfed.

Bill, you want us to get up in arms over how nystamps is selling its stamps.

I have been running it over and over, and I have a bigger complaint against the myriad of sellers who charge inflated prices for defective merchandise, won't show you both sides of a stamp, and don't make any claims about ALL the defects present. nystamps makes no such claims, shows pictures of both sides, starts bidding at 1c, charges shipping at $1 per lot, accepts returns, and seldom challenges the reason for a return. How are they MORE corrupt than the myriad not being complained about.

I do not like the fact that they misidentify material so often. But is it immoral if they are simply trusting the opinions of the previous owners of the material to offer it for sale as what that owner said, without challenging it? If that is how they approach the task of stripping an album, how does one assail their integrity? By setting up an ideal for how it OUGHT to be done? By what standard of justice do we do that?

Is it not the nature of an open, unregulated market that the uninformed suffer more than those who know the material? Buying cars, buying cattle, buying stamps - a free market can be a dangerous place. Yet in the world of business and politics we trust the free market system to be the most reliable source for justice and stability. How smart is that?

In a free market, their is no substitute for knowledge. Certainly not in more and more layers of regulation. Or is this Republicans vs Democrats?

Essayk, both you and Bill Weiss are right. Bill is emphasizing the moral side of the free market. He is rightly morally offended by sellers (remember, knowledge is key, we all agree) who don't employ knowledge to describe their product accurately. You are emphasizing the free market as better way to achieve morality. The theorists of the free market system back in the 18th century, emphasized that without honest, virtuous participants, the system would become immoral, though they thought it better than the alternatives.

Perhaps the key is to recognize that those who advocate controlled markets (highly regulated to protect consumers against themselves) are simply relocating the moral aspect to the government/regulator/policers of the market. If they are honest and moral they COULD regulate the market for the benefit of all. But if they are dishonest, they can use their regulatory power to reward their cronies and misuse the "little guy" under the guise of helping the little guy.

Bill is doing all he can to educate buyers so they can morally defend themselves. He also is trying to educate sellers, based on an implied appeal to their moral rectitude. He's hoping that their consciences would lead them to listen to what he points out and change their behavior. The honest ones do (and many sellers do cooperate with Stamp Smarter) and the dishonest ones don't. Morality, morality, morality.

We all know that a lot of people are dishonest. In the end honesty is the only solution--heavy-handed regulation usually ends up as another form of immorality. But there's just not enough honesty to go around.

I think your arguments, essayk, defending the particular seller being discussed here have merit. That seller could be more immoral than he is and some on ebay are. Bill, equally concerned with the moral questions, simply points out how much more transparent and honest the seller in question could be. Glass half full (he could be worse, essayk), glass half empty (he could be better, Bill Weiss).

Both of you, with all your knowledge, are truly, morally, concerned for the little guy stamp collector. We little guys, with so much less knowledge, salute you and thank you for sharing your knowledge with us on this forum.

Do I hear a hear hear?

Hear Hear! (Am I allowed to give a "Hear/Hear" since I am one of the principals?).

Essayk; The previous poster sums this issue up very well and there is no point in having a pissing contest when no-one can clearly win, so I would rather not. Especially with someone I like and respect. And I could disect your last post point by point, showing you where and why I disagree, but I won't.

Let me just take one of your points (above) and say that this method of doing business is often referred to as "throw enough crap on the wall and some is bound to stick". I have seen (as we all have) many such sellers who use this method with great success. And the beauty of that method is that ANYONE can do it. Simply do not make the ethical decison to try your best to describe the material accurately. Any old excuse will do. No time. Not knowledgeable enough. "No questions asked return policy", etc. Some of the most ethically challenged people I've known in this business use this method. So if you wish to defend it, fine, your entitled, but not me. And not most ethical people I know. You can't sell a house without a guarantee it is "as described". I believe you are legally bound to reveal any "problem" you are aware of? But our hobby has no such "law". But should it? Since it does not, the "crap on wall" method is acceptable to many. You seem to be defending such a way of doing business. If I read you wrong, I apologize. I think it ethically sucks.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

I think some of this is about one's perspective. Bill's experience and his work not only with ebay oversight committees but in the world of expertization gives him a very good understanding of the damage that deceptive selling does to our hobby. He is the messenger having to tell a hobbyist that they bought something that was not what they thought it to be. Few of us have this kind of experience and perhaps we choose to not dwell on this kind of negative issue. But Bill lives it every day.

Without question the solution is better education. Both buyers and sellers can do things which can improve online transactions. There are plenty of great online sellers and sources of good material. Avoid the 'too good to be true' and discount listings. Research the seller (beyond their feedback scores). Don't count of a smooth and easy return if things go wrong; it may or may not be easy to get your money back. If you are trying to source a particular stamp, educate yourself with known issues to look for. Try to communicate with the seller before the sale, see if they respond in a professional and timely manner. Ask questions.
Don

http://www.ebay.com/itm/nystamps-US...em51cd3e0ec9

Here is a great example to illustrate my point. The seller has been personally told by me numerous times that stamps which are believed to be 519 are FAKE (counterfeit perfs added to #344). He has been told over and over HOW to identify these fakes (perf holes are too round and too sharp). But does that stop him from listing the next one? Does he really need to be told 10X how to identify a fake 519? And at what point, if any, do we try to hold him (or any seller) accountable? So he sells this stamp, let's say for $100. Well, that poor buyer just bought a perfectly worthless stamp. And such buyers seldom avail themselves of third party expert opinions, so they just quietly stick the stamp(s) into their album, trusting the seller with very high feedback and a great return policy, that he is correct in how he described the stamp. But the seller sold a bad stamp, and he should know it because he's been told numerous times how to ID fake 519s.

Or am I all wet here?

Don....
I disagree with this statement....
He is NOT a messenger....he is PAID for his services.

This I totally AGREE with.

Bill and Don, I understand your points perfectly. However, nothing will preclude those sellers unless it becomes illegal to sell something without a perfect description. Stamp Smarter is a great resource, but also isn't perfect.

Our politicians in the U.S. are not prosecuted if they state incorrect facts. Commercially advertised products are generally free from prosecution unless they cause someone harm.

In the U.S. lying is very common yet often unknown to the many viewers of television and what they hear from their politicians. I would love it if stating known infactual information would be a crime. I doubt that this will ever happen because so much money is made on presenting incorrect information to sell a product or to help get elected. The common public doesn't have the desire to weed out the truth nor to listen to it when it is very different than what they themselves have held to be "true." Very few people consider any issue with a truly objective mindset to accurately process the information given to them.

This is to be expected from people that just don't have enough time nor ability to objectively assess a statement that is presented as an absolute.

Stamp Smarter is a great resource to help those that are trying to find honest sellers. Beyond that, it does not solve much.

Some sellers are great at times. Others are bad most of the time. This is where Stamp Smarter can help.

Getting rid of dishonest sellers would require a great change in U.S. policy that would completely change the dynamics of current politics. I personally would love to see that change, but cannot imagine that it could occur based on today's political climate.

As Don stated, education is the key. The market is basically unregulated and only those that know what they are doing will be able to buy from the ebay market without getting burned. Stamp Smarter is what I view as the best medium of helping buyers.