1869 12c Scott 117 No Sign Of Grill

I just received a modest stamp collection of mostly affordable classic US material (best items are probably a very faulty Scott 70d and nice used 120 and 121), but it also had this. It appears at first glance to be a run of the mill used 117, but turn it over and there's absolutely zero sign of a grill. Sites like theswedishtiger.com are telling me missing grill errors exist on the 1869s and can be very expensive, and there is also a rare 1875 reissue with no grills. All the other pictorials in this collection have obvious grills. I don't want to sell it without knowing what it is, so please take a look below and educate me.

Looking from the reverse, the right most cancel line covers what appears to be part of the grill. They were often lightly impressed and then put on a cover for a time and later placed in an album for who knows how long.

Aside from several obvious repairs, I would dip the item in watermark fluid to look for a grill pattern. Use one of the more obvious low values as a guide. If I remember correctly the grills on this issue were impressed over the gum and they are often weak on the issued stamps.

Rev, please take my picture and circle the area you're pointing at for me. One thing to know is that this stamp is deeply embossed and most of the unevenness you'll see on the back is going to be from that. You can see it most obviously behind the word "Postage". Also, there is a hinge remnant which I'm sure is obvious that's contributing.

By the way, where is the "quote someone" button on this forum?

Alas, I have always had problems posting photos on the board, although I have not tried in a long time. If you start at the bottom of the right most line of the cancel and go up about 3 perfs then you can see the bottom of the grill. I am very familiar with the impressions of the 1869 issue, both the original issue and the reissues.

The software used to create this site doesn't have a quote option, so you have to quote people the old fashioned way.

Begin with: [quote] It must be in brackets exactly as I have typed it.

Copy and paste what you want to quote from the post you're responding to.

After you've copied the words from their post, add the same thing I posted above to the end of the words you copied except add a / in front of the word quote.

Cheers!

I hope this helps!

Brian

No thank you, not worth the hassle, will continue to tag names.

@Rev I think I know the spot you mean, but I can't see anything but the most uninterpretable random paper disturbances near there. And even that might be glue. Here are some different lighting shots that will hopefully help. Tried getting a super closeup of that area but my camera isn't capable.

Can you say with high confidence for reasons aside from grill that this is not an 1875? In other words, are there any other tells?

There is apparently a difference in the paper used for the non-grilled variety. I did see the online article explaining this some months back- two American philatelists authored it- but for the life of me I can't find it now.

The reissues have very sharp proof like impressions, and practically all that were used came from dealers mailings. So they were registered covers, and would not have a manuscript cancel.

The quote button is the next to the last button in the "Format" row of buttons. The button design has a red arrow pointing to the right next to a page of text.

A moist artists brush can be used to remove the hinge remnant with out the need to soak the entire stamp. Oblique lighting may also help when used with a strong (30x) glass or higher.

Right here.



By the way, be sure to click on the right side of the flashing cursor.

Thanks, so it's error or bust then. I also feel like the centering on this is a bit lax relative to what I'd expect for a super short-printed commemorative reissue, is that hunch on the mark? Overall it struck me as looking like a regular issue from the outset.

I would love to take it to someone who knows something and would know how to do things like removing the hinge glue the right way. I live in Charlottesville, VA and don't know any stamp experts around here. I'm mainly a coin guy and I only even know of one coin shop in the area, but they don't sell stamps. Does anyone here have a lead?

Thanks as well for pointing out the quote button

The only way that the without grill stamps exist is mint with original gum. It's impossible to prove with a used stamp.

You're welcome.




Read Alan C. Campbell's article THE QUEST FOR PERFECTION:
OBSERVATIONS ON GRADING
AND ON PERFORATING THE OFFICIAL STAMPS here:

https://chronicle.uspcs.org/pdf/Chr...16/12964.pdf

Although it is specifically about Official Stamps, it does apply to perforating in that era.

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