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Difference between "Intaglio" & "Photogravure" Printings  
 

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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
652 Posts
Posted 02/20/2014   09:04 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The next series of Austria is almost as close a problem!?

Austria 1945 Landscapes:

What kind of recess do we have here??? Which stamp has been deeply etched or engraved???




















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Pillar Of The Community
2774 Posts
Posted 02/22/2014   07:41 am  Show Profile Check jogil's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jogil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Do dots usually indicate photogravure?
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Edited by jogil - 02/22/2014 09:50 am
Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
652 Posts
Posted 02/22/2014   09:28 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
NO!

The sharp, clear dots in these Austrian stamps are from screened recess!

The blurred dots are photogravure.
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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4382 Posts
Posted 02/23/2014   3:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Rein, that Austrian 1935 Airmail series shows how
errors creep into these catalogues and just remain because
nobody cares.

In my 1980 Austria Netto Katalog they are listed as having been printed RaTdr. which means Photogravure

In the 1985 ANK they are listed as having been printed
by StTdr. meaning steel recess engraving and that's
how it stayed because nobody bothered to correct it.

A few years ago I emailed the ANK publisher asking whether
they were aware of a certain item and if the would add
it in one of their next editions.
The wrote back saying that it wouldn't interest the majority
of people who use the catalogue and they don't have the space
to include it.
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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4382 Posts
Posted 02/23/2014   4:33 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Those 1945 Landscape Schilling values have always puzzled me.

I just don't see any traditional "engraving"
on any of them.

They are all photogravure in my opinion.

But looking at the catalogues it is confusing.

ANK states 767 - 770 the May/June 1945 issue

Linientiefdruck, gerasterter Grund
(Raster mit Lupe deutlich sichtbar)

loosely translates as recess line engraving , screened
background.(mainly the upper and lower panels) (The screening is clearly visible with a loupe/magnifier)


For the the August issue (ANK 771 - 774)it says.

Rastertiefdruck,glatter Grund
(Kein Raster sichtbar)

translates as Photogravure, smooth (solid) background.
(No screening visible)


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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
652 Posts
Posted 02/24/2014   01:55 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Lithograving,


the problem is that recess is NOT automatically engraving!

The difference is in the machinery and in the type of inks, NOTHING else!

The two versions of the Luxemburg 10F stamps have been printed by JOHEZ (probably) on the same press! Both are in recess!



The Austrian stamps are in recess [1935 Airmail and 1945 Landscape - separate screen cells visible] and the name ANK uses in wrong! Linientiefdruck where that are no lines!? "Gerasterte Tiefdruck" wouldbe better but still confusing. Rakeltiefdruck is not good either as in both cases a doctors blade could hav been used. Photogravure is OK in both cases because of the use of photography in replicating the images....

As I said, the ink makes the difference and the way the ink gets forced out of the recesses or simply drops out...

groetjes, Rein
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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4382 Posts
Posted 02/24/2014   4:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I always thought that the German word Rakeltiefdruck isn't really
as suitable for the print process as Photogravure in English.

Rakel translates as the blade which wipes off the excess ink
from the plate/cylinder.

Tief can be translated as relief, recess, gravure

German language catalogues also use the term Rastertiefdruck which
I think is closer to to Photogravure , since
Raster translates as screen also grid

Of course Rein you are the expert in all this and there might
be errors in my post.
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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
652 Posts
Posted 02/25/2014   04:02 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The problem remains that in all languages the terms are not adequate as they may lead to confusion when you analyse the words :)

- thick-ink-recess [now recess]
- thin-ink-recess [now photogravure]

Both processes may have plates/cylinders prepared by photographic means, may have screens, may have doctor blades, etc...

Ätztiefdruck is about etching, but modern photogravure is no longer etched but engraved [laser, diamond needle]. And on the other hand, recess plates were etched quite often!
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Edited by Galeoptix - 02/25/2014 07:51 am
Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4382 Posts
Posted 02/25/2014   8:28 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I finally pulled out my mint copies of Type I (Scott 478 -481) from the album and had a good look at them.

When I hold them obliquely to the light I do see raised inked
areas on the front and impressions (debossing?) on the back.

Obviously classic characteristics of recess engraving,
therefore what ANK calls Linientiefdruck is maybe
correct.


Austria

Scott 481 ANK 770 Michel 770




The scan of the gum side did not show the impressions
as I had hoped.

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Edited by lithograving - 03/21/2018 8:48 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4382 Posts
Posted 02/25/2014   11:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here are a couple of footnotes from two catalogues
regarding the two types of the 1946 Austrian landscapes definitives.


Scott




Michel



Type I = Plattendruck = flat plate printing

Type II = Walzendruck = cylinder (rotary) printing
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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
652 Posts
Posted 02/26/2014   02:42 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Lithograving,

"Obviously classic characteristics of recess engraving,
therefore what ANK calls Linientiefdruck is maybe correct."

There are no straight lines, BUT this is Thick-ink recess!

Michel is WRONG!

Markenbild klar -> Thick-ink recess AKA recess
MArkenbild weich und getönt -> Thin-ink recess AKA photogravure

Don't get fooled by the catalogues! Thety do not know much about printing methods...

groetjes, Rein
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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4382 Posts
Posted 02/26/2014   12:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Rein, how would you explain the clear depressions/imprint/debossing I see on the back of all the mint copies I have.

I've never seen any stamp printed photogravure
with any imprint or whatever on the gum side.
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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
652 Posts
Posted 02/27/2014   02:15 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Lithograving,

which stamp shows the depressions/imprint/debossing???



Your stamp is in thick-ink-recess AKA recess! Certainly NOT photogravure [thin-ink recess]...

groetjes, Rein
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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
652 Posts
Posted 02/27/2014   03:31 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Instead of a doctor blade the Goebel reel-fed recess press [PTT Wertzeichendruckerei, Bern] used a reel of wiping-paper:

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Valued Member
United Kingdom
271 Posts
Posted 02/27/2014   03:59 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add 65170 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
For more about die wipes (the wiping paper referred to by Galeoptix), see my thread on Stamp Magazine's site at http://www.stampmagazine.co.uk/foru...asp?th=90842
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