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How Do You Know Which Stamps To Send Of To Get Certs For

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Posted 06/06/2019   2:18 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Beepshu to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hey all
I'm going through and reorganising stamps how do you know which stamps are worth while to get sent off and get certs for ?

I've a few stamps I can't find anywhere on line so I don't know if there valuable or no and if it would make it worth while to get certs done
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Posted 06/06/2019   2:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Petert4522 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Personally I do not care for certificates, but if you insist just show your stamps and we might give you an idea

Peter
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Posted 06/06/2019   2:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add floortrader to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Scan the stamp here and someone will help and then you can decide .
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Posted 06/07/2019   11:16 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add howell1018 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I wouldn't send in a stamp unless I knew in advance it was going to fetch at least $100.
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Posted 06/08/2019   07:22 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Germania to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
>> Hey all
I'm going through and reorganising stamps how do you know which stamps are worth while to get sent off and get certs for ?

I've a few stamps I can't find anywhere on line so I don't know if there valuable or no and if it would make it worth while to get certs done


Here are a few guidelines for deciding if a cert is required:
- stamps known to be extensively forged. For example, Old German States Saxony 1.
- stamp issued in small quantity (100 or less) and does not already have a certificate. (No cert - probably forged).
- stamps with overprints, especially if they have a very high catalog value.
- stamps known to be extensively reprinted (for example, almost every issue from Helgoland).
- look-alike stamps where the difference between high catalog value and minimal value is due to a tiny line or dot of ink (for example, some Washington-Franklins).

If you can't find a stamp online it means nothing. If you can't find it in a printed catalog then it may be a local or a revenue or something else. Post them here on SCF.
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Posted 06/08/2019   08:27 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Climber Steve to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Germania offers really good thoughts. I'll add that getting a cert or not can depend on the country and how specialized your collection is. By "specialization," I also mean that you may go far enough along in your area that you accumulate reference materials that can help you identify some forgeries on your own. As an example, there are "tell-tales" on early Crown stamps of the Portuguese colonies where one can immediately observe if the stamp is genuine or is a Fournier forgery.

Germania's comment about overprints is particularly useful. In my collecting areas, early classics that are overprinted are prone to being forged. These include early Madeira, Portuguese India; also some early classics of Mexico.

I'll disagree gently with Petert4522 who says: "personally, I do not care for certificates." One reason to get certs is for the future. If one has higher value stamps prone to being forged or reprinted, and one does not get certs, then the perceived value of the collection could be greatly reduced when it comes time to sell.
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Edited by Climber Steve - 06/08/2019 08:29 am
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Posted 06/08/2019   08:36 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I would gently disagree with Germania comment

Quote:
look-alike stamps where the difference between high catalog value and minimal value is due to a tiny line or dot of ink (for example, some Washington-Franklins).


The differences between W/F varieties are primarily perforations, watermarks, and printing (flat plate, rotary, offset) types.
Don
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Posted 06/08/2019   10:01 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Germania to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
51studebaker - I understand your point. I was thinking more along the lines of distinguishing between Scott 534 (Type Va) and Scott 534B (Type VII), etc.

Entire books have been written on the W-F series. With some practice it is not too hard to identify the catalog number. But are they genuine (altered)? Perf and gum forgers can do a very credible job.
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Posted 06/08/2019   10:18 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add shermae to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I would add to Germania's and Don's comments look alike stamps who's large difference in value is based on a color shade or paper type (e.g. chalky vs. ordinary).
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Posted 06/08/2019   10:24 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Germania,
Understood. Yes, W/Fs can be challenging. But there is now enough information and help online and without extra cost that all hobbyists can learn enough to make an identification.

Here is a link which shows which 'source'[ stamps possible fakes/alternations might be made from and and what to look for
http://stampsmarter.com/1847usa/WFFakes.html

And here is a link to a tool which walks the hobbyists through the ID process so they can quickly learn the proper steps...3 simple steps for most stamps
http://www.stampsmarter.com/feature...rank_ID.html

And there is much more additional W/F information Stamp Smarter
http://stampsmarter.com/1847usa/was...ankmain.html

And this is just one website. Of course additional help is also available on sites like this one. Costly books are no longer required for a casual collector, with a bit of effort folks can learn what they need to make an ID for most of the W/F stamp they own online and without cost.
Don

Edit: I think that many folks are casual collectors who may not want to become specialists in a series like the W/Fs. Specialized catalogs or in depth reference books are great for a person who wants to specialize. But many collectors, whether they are just starting or only have a casual interest in a series like W/Fs, benefit from having the information they need freely available online. I think this is how we grow our hobby.
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Posted 06/09/2019   04:51 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add steevh to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
For me the main consideration in getting a certificate would be whether I wanted to sell the stamp, and how much difference I thought having the cert. would make.

As Germania points out, the main reason is for stamps that have a variant that is worth far more than the regular stamp (or the forgery!).

But first I would want to be pretty sure myself that I really had the valuable variety, not the lower-value one. A good way to do this is post your image on a stamp forum -- usually someone with a good deal of expertise will be happy to advise.

This rule covers most bases, even the difference between mnh and re-gums.

Bear in mind that certification costs significant money, so before you spend your $20 or whatever you want to be pretty sure you will getting some value-added, and not just chucking it down the drain.

Also note, certifiers will only usually attest whether a stamp is genuine or not, and will offer no expertization of the gum.

Furthermore, note that most queries from newby collectors are going to get a negative response -- the stamp isn't the valuable variety. Look through past posts in any forum and you will see this is the case.

If Scott #12 is worth $10, and Scott 12a is worth $1,000, then Scott 12 is going to be at least 100 times more common than 12a, and the random chance that you have the Scott 12a is close to zero. But it seems that most people are irrational optimists!
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Posted 06/09/2019   12:16 pm  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add revenuecollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It all depends on why you are wanting to get a cert:

  1. To authenticate the stamp. Is it what I think it is?

  2. To establish condition. Are there any unseen faults or repairs?

  3. To establish a numeric grade, i.e., "graded cert". Usually only worthwhile in certain collecting areas and only if the stamp is XF or better.

  4. To get new varieties or discoveries "on the record" for possible inclusion in catalogs. For certain varieties/discoveries, Scott will not list them without a certed example.


For each of these, the motivation may be for your own purposes or for resale. If the former, value may not factor into deciding whether or not to get a cert. If the latter, then the market value (NOT catalog value!) becomes an important factor as to whether or not you bear the expense of getting a cert. Most expertizers calculate their fee as a percentage of catalog value of the item, regardless of condition issues or other aspects that adversely affect the real market value.

For example, if you have a stamp that catalogs $2000, and the expertizer charges 5% of catalog value, that's a $100 cert fee... not bad if you can get full catalog value when you go to sell it. But let's say, for the sake of argument, that the stamp has some faults or has subpar centering or impression to the extent that the item might only garner 25% of catalog value on the open market... well, that $100 cert fee is now 20% of the $500 return. That's a much higher expense ratio. At what point is it actually worthwhile to spend the money on the cert?

The major expertizers have special tiers for high-catalogue value items ($5,000+) with condition issues that result in paying a lower effective percentage of catalogue value for the cert... but unfortunately that's only for stamps that catalog above that threshold. Below that threshold, you're paying the full percentage (if genuine) regardless of condition.

If an item comes back as not what you thought it was, you won't pay the percentage of what you thought it was, but rather their minimum expertization fee (usually between $27-35). So keep that in mind: even if the item is a fake or reprint, you still will be out the minimum expertization fee regardless, so you'll want to be on firm footing before deciding to submit an item, as those minimum fees can add up in no time.

Then we get into the issue of timing... WHEN should you get a cert?

If it's strictly for your own edification, research purposes, enjoyment, etc., then you can get a cert at any time.

If, on the other hand, the intention is to maximize resale return, then do not get the cert until close to the time you intend to put the item on the market. The older a cert is, the less positive impact it has on the market value.

If the cert is older than 5 years, most auction houses will give buyers the right to put the item on extension for re-expertization. This is for several reasons:

  1. To ensure that condition has not deteriorated since the cert was issued, and

  2. Philatelic standards are ever-evolving in light of new discoveries and research; what was the standard for a given item 10, 20 , or 30 years ago may no longer be the current standard.
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Posted 06/09/2019   5:10 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Climber Steve to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for your comments, revenue collector. I have some thoughts.

You said: "the older a cert is, the less positive impact it has on the market value....." Are you talking certs just on US stamps here, or others? As an example, I have ISPP certs on some Portuguese material that are 20 years or older. I suppose I could re-certify some if I was going to sell my collection. But don't see a point since I have over 100 ISPP certs, most obtained by me.

How are you defining "major expertizers," and for what countries? Just US? Examples: I have the afore-mentioned ISPP certs; a number of MEPSI certs for Mexico items; and Kronenberg certs since he is a recognized expertizer for Poland material. I know that other specialty societies have members who are qualified to do certs of those countries. I also know the main Portuguese expertizer in the US certifies for both the ISPP and the APS. As an aside, I have occasionally used APS and have used the PF in the past. I won't use either PSE or PSAG.
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Edited by Climber Steve - 06/09/2019 5:13 pm
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Posted 06/09/2019   6:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Germania to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
>> "the older a cert is, the less positive impact it has on the market value....."

This is true for BPP certificates. BPP is the German Expertizers Association and issues certificates for German material. A BPP certificate is good for five years and is not just an offered opinion but a guarantee. After five years, no more guarantee. So newer certificates have more value.

I have read plenty of threads on the German forum sites where an old certificate turns out to be completely wrong and the stamp or cover is a fake, due to new research or information.
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Posted 06/11/2019   12:46 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Philazilla to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I certify any apparently sound stamp that catalogs for over about $300. For many issues, there are more reperfs (and regums) than sound stamps. I certify all but the least expensive US flat plate coils and most valuable color varieties. I certify my stamps as soon as I get them and reserve the option to return them if they are unsound. I try to be vigilant about adding fakes or damaged (reperfed) stamps to my collection. Certification is one tool that helps. I have a couple exceptions to my $300 "rule". I don't plan to certify booklet panes or the 5c Washington error stamps.
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Posted 06/11/2019   08:26 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add steevh to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have a question about certification -- what happens with stamps that the expertizers judge to be borderline? That is, they can't judge one way or the other.

I imagine this must happen quite a lot with such things as German inflation era cancellations -- a lot of those cancels would be very easy to forge. Or do they only expertize those with clear cds?

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