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US Scott 360 Used (Bluish Paper) Sold For $1580.55 With Weiss Certificate - Someone Get A Steal?

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Posted 04/17/2021   5:47 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Message



Well eBay item number: 333950496597 closed April 17, 2021 at 2:07 PM PDT.

Should the Weiss certificate have been trusted? The seller seemed unsure.

If it gets a good PF or other Cert, what should the real price be? 10x, 20x, 40x, 80x ($126,444.00) or more? Mint is $27,500 in Scott and the USED blue papers sell for many multiples of mint when priced. Only the 8 cent is priced higher mint, $30,000.00.

Clearly this single stamp would have been accepted as a single lot consignment in any major auction with a cover photo in most.

So why the eBay sale?

Full disclosure, the high bid exceeded my "stamp lottery ticket" pocket money available today. I was too low with my four figures, did not make the top two.

So what do you think. Ecstatic buyer, seller knew more than he shared, seller thought it was too good to be true and just ran it on eBay. Fake cert? Let's have a discussion!

Me, my gut said go for it. I think it could very well be a win with a good PF or APEX Cert.





This is only a photocopy of the original certificate, not the original. See my next post below for the listing seller's take.
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Edited by Parcelpostguy - 04/17/2021 6:21 pm

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Posted 04/17/2021   6:08 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Why would the seller have not submitted to the PF?

The only used copy of 360 I could find in the PF database was found to be not genuine, artificially blued to be exact.
https://www.philatelicfoundation.or...-360-010.jpg
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Posted 04/17/2021   6:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Why did the one time owner send it to Wm Weiss back in 2002 and not somewhere else?

The beauty of unlisted and/or unpriced in the catalog items is that the cert fee is usually just a minimum amount.

Here is what the eBay seller wrote:

US #360 Bluish Paper w/ Weiss Cert?! Ext. rare if genuine. Used is unlisted in Scott. Value would surely be well into five figure territory if genuine. The stamp does appear to be on Bluish Paper.

The certificate does appears authentic as well. Although, it is is a photocopy, not the original certificate. At the very least, I think there is reason for caution on the basis of its presumed rarity alone. I had always believed that there weren't any Used #360's, because I remembered reading that the 4-cent and 8-cent values of the Bluish Paper issue were not made available for use as postage. I forget the exact history, though. Maybe a few were legitimately used?



The question is could Bill Weiss get snowed by a fraudulently colored blue paper stamp. Alas he is not around to ask.
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Posted 04/17/2021   7:05 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add GMC89 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It's hard to believe that a seller today of the 360 would not obtain a current certificate. The blue issues as I understand are not hard to authenticate for those who do that work. My concern would be with the "copy" of the certificate. I would think that it would be easier to alter a good certificate than to fool Mr. Weis.
You are absolutely correct, that is not an eBay item. In my opinion the color of the 360 is off.
"If it sounds to good to be true"......
Really interesting. It would be great if it turns out to genuine.
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Edited by GMC89 - 04/17/2021 7:06 pm
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Posted 04/17/2021   7:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Siegel offers the following commentary in various lot descriptions:


Quote:
According to Johl (Vol. 1, page 175), the only source of the 4c and 8c Bluish stamps was the archives of the Post Office Department. Approximately 80 of each were traded for rare stamps missing from the archives. Given the failed experimental nature of the paper mixture, it is no surprise that virtually all copies are off center to some extent.



Quote:
The June 1910 Third Assistant Postmaster General's report states that 4,400 (eleven sheets) of the 4c were printed on Bluish Paper. It is believed that none of the 4c and 8c Bluish Paper stamps were distributed to post offices, and that all of the examples in collectors' hands reached the market through the Travers-Steinmetz exchange and the 1914 National Museum trades to H. F. Colman (12 copies) and Nassau Stamp Company (65 copies).
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Posted 04/17/2021   7:42 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Weiss was an expert in NYFM cancels (perhaps all fancy cancels, I forget) and in postal stationery. He had his limitations. In one of his auctions a 2523A (a gravure printed stamp) was listed as a 2523c (the Toledo brown error - an intaglio printed stamp). In the same auction a common as dirt 2609 (blue) was listed as a 2609c (indigo blue).

A copy of a Weiss cert. I wouldn't touch this one with a pole that exceeds social distancing requirements.
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Posted 04/17/2021   7:59 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I counted Bill as a close friend. He 'farmed out' some of stamps that he felt he was not knowledgeable enough about but I do not know if this is one of them. After he was kind enough to send me many of his expertizing notes (the handwritten notes/comment he made to himself as he went through his process) I grew a bit less confident in some of his early work like this one.

Regarding the location ( eBay) I recall having to to throw a 423B that I stumbled across out on eBay at a fire sale price (around $2500 if I recall). Why? Because I was laying in a hospital bed, close to death and my wife was in tears. She had been bedside with me for two months and out of work and my medical bills had tapped us out. Then the house furnace died and she was freaking out over the replacement cost. I was so ill that I could not even stand and the prognosis was 5% chance of living more than 6 months. So I listed the stamp from my laptop and hoped it sold with the PSE cert that I had gotten for it. Stamp was purchased on eBay at a bargain price and later sold in a Seigel auction (Sale 1187 Lot 579) for twice that amount. So yes, sometimes things get sold on eBay for a bargain.
Of course the trouble is that for every bargain there are 100,000 non-bargains. But eBay sells a lot of 'hope' just like a lottery.
Don
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Posted 04/17/2021   8:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I looked through the sellers sold listings and he/she does sell a lot of "Z' grills and multi-thousand dollar catalog value stamps at ridiculously low prices, all without certs from what I saw. That makes me go hmmmmmm.
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Posted 04/17/2021   10:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jleb1979 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
An item that could be worth so much "if genuine," in the sellers own stated words, but the seller doesn't take straightforward steps to ascertain..... my antennae twitch too much.
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Posted 04/17/2021   11:15 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add JLLebbert to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
If the seller truly believed the stamp to be genuine, he would have obtained a newer cert prior to offering it for sale.
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Posted 04/18/2021   01:42 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Dry Tech to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That's the first thing that crosses my mind when I see one of these "bargains" on eBay. And there are quite a few of them out there.
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Posted 04/18/2021   04:21 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Cumer Canitez to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The Seller sounds worse than me and I have very poor knowledge of the stamps...
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Posted 04/18/2021   06:51 am  Show Profile Check sinclair2010's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add sinclair2010 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I looked through the sellers sold listings and he/she does sell a lot of "Z' grills and multi-thousand dollar catalog value stamps at ridiculously low prices, all without certs from what I saw. That makes me go hmmmmmm


I have been watching this seller for quite some time. He is one of the most dishonest sellers out there. As far as the item under discussion goes, it is very fitting that this guy would be selling it.
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Posted 04/18/2021   07:38 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, I should have looked at this seller's listings first thing. They are chock full of pricey color/shade varieties just because the seller says so. No certs of course. 64a Pigeon Blood, 537a Deep Red Violet, all manner of pricey shades of Scott 1 and 63 etc., you get the picture. He also sells more "Z" grills in a month then Siegel sells in a year. Who knew! And once in a very great while there will be a stamp with an actual cert to lend legitimacy.

The thing that amazes me is that he sells a lot of stamps. Even more amazing that so many buyers "score" these gems at fractions of purported catalog. They know that they just threw their money away and/or the item is not what it is stated to be. Right? Why do it? What is the point?
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Posted 04/18/2021   08:34 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wtcrowe to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply



Based on the shade of this stamp it is highly unlikely that it is a bluish paper, Scott 360. The image above is the typical shade of a 4c bluish paper and it has been called genuine with PF 558651.
I have handled several examples of this Scott number most recently in 2017 for a client. None of them were in a dark shade.

Additionally, a photocopy of a certificate for this stamp is useless. I have seen Philatelic Foundation certificates for stamps deemed to be the normal paper altered to read that it is a genuine bluish paper. It is not probable that Bill Weiss made the mistake and more likely that the photocopy is inaccurate.
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Posted 04/18/2021   09:32 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add gmot to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The psychology is interesting on the part of the buyers. Some people are so anxious to get that rare shade/variety at a bargain that they convince themselves that the deal too good to be true is indeed true. Willful self-deception is a powerful force, or sellers like this couldn't succeed.
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