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Proof Of Number 1 Of Spain 1850 Isabella

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Pillar Of The Community
United States
729 Posts
Posted 06/28/2022   08:58 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add classic_paper to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
What we all agree on:
-the OP did a thing

What we do no all agree on:
-the purpose of the thing
-the value of the thing, either monetary or philatelic
-who would care about its existence
-the aesthetic and quality of the thing
-the effort it took to produce
-the reason for creating it in the first place

I for one, don't know why anyone would make, let alone want, something like this. I think it's terribly ugly ("months of work?" I mean, if you spent one hour a week for two months I guess that might be technically accurate), and it doesn't have any kind of specific political or cultural history to make it interesting as a cinderella.

If one believes that the primary purpose of art is to elicit a response, then the OP's project is certainly successful. So there's that, at least.
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Pillar Of The Community
4493 Posts
Posted 06/28/2022   10:23 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I think this thread got of to a rocky start with a very misleading title of:
"Proof Of Number 1 Of Spain 1850 Isabella",
which it clearly is not, despite the interesting production story.

If the thread had been posted in the Cinderella category and titled "Modern facsimile made on my computer" (or fantasy, or reproduction, or copy, pick your synonym), I suspect it would have been received more generously. With the great expanse of this hobby, it is unfortunate that items in someone's area of interest would be classed as trash or rubbish just because they may not be someone else's cup of tea. The hobby would be better if we were slower to criticize and condemn.

A question to ponder ...how different is this from what J. W. Scott was doing 100+ years ago?
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Edited by John Becker - 06/28/2022 3:47 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Canada
1881 Posts
Posted 06/28/2022   10:44 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Just_fella to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
My question is why?
What did/do you hope to gain from this?
Hopefully not deceive.
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Valued Member
United States
125 Posts
Posted 06/28/2022   12:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add gvol21 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Agree with John Becker. Problem had to do with how OP introduced the item, as opposed to the item per se (not my cup of tea, but I have genuine 19th century issues in my collection that look worse).

We're all quite sensitive to forgeries, counterfeits, and any attempt to swindle collectors, so I understand how this wouldn't go over very well with this crowd.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1345 Posts
Posted 06/28/2022   2:40 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
he (?)


In today's political climate in the USA, I do not know the proper answer to your question nor if such a question is even allowed to be asked.

Now back to something less politically controversial ( ):




Now for you non-alcoholic, non-breeding non-Americans, the following images insult the values of some folks because they show US Civil War related items in a good light even though they were and remain US Citizens. Even the flags shown have been politically cleansed since issued in 1976





HOWEVER and 100% on point to this thread is this late 2021 (28 October) issue from the Nederlands which to many eyes is of a beautiful design with so called "stamp-on-stamp" imagery. Yet look closely at the central design of each stamp:



Can you tell that each central image is not of a stamp but rather a computer generated fake stamp? Furthermore can you tell the entire sheet was NOT a human design but rather designed by computer AI?

Perspective is funny. If a computer by its own AI designs fake "belongs in the rubbish" stamp design, that is great; but, let a human use a computer to make designs and let the rock throwing begin. Generative Art is the term for the computer's design; what the OP did seems to have less flattering names. The computer based its designs on a collection of 1,500 stamps from the 1852-1920 period.

So quick, go here: https://www.postnl.nl/en/about-post...st-time.html for ordering information (and more detail about the design) so you can order and place them in the rubbish as you may think they belong.

At this point I would almost help the OP get his designs published and issued as valid personal stamps just to .


Edit for perspective:

I apologize if my posts are reading as a bit harsh or long, but I am and have been stuck in my stamp office (has bathroom) in separation quarantine due to my positive covid status (positive test, not just guessing). Household has an immuno-compromised person so I am glad I can be locked away for their safety and my piece of mind. I, we, avoided this for over two years in spite of the kid treating covid patients in the ICU during the entire time. However spending an hour last Tuesday morning with our CPA, in his office, that's what got me. He tested positive for covid later that afternoon.
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Edited by Parcelpostguy - 06/28/2022 3:02 pm
Valued Member
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United States
49 Posts
Posted 06/28/2022   3:03 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Chesham85 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I find it interesting that this post and a second "Questionable Sellers Offering Photocopy Essay-Fantasy Items" are nearly consecutive in Last 100 Active Topics. It is a short step between the "Proof" moving to eBay for sale. I remember reading a past discussion on this board where the main complaint was that in Spain allowed the selling of Fakes without mentioning same. It is a short step to seeing these being in the sales channel especially as the OP mentions this is for the collector.

As an aside like many posters on this site come from a system background and cannot see how this took the OP months to complete. Maybe one hour a week as suggested but even then, manhours seem to be seriously overcounted.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
729 Posts
Posted 06/28/2022   3:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add classic_paper to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Perspective is funny.

Indeed it is.


Quote:
If a computer by its own AI designs fake "belongs in the rubbish" stamp design, that is great; but, let a human use a computer to make designs and let the rock throwing begin. Generative Art is the term for the computer's design; what the OP did seems to have less flattering names. The computer based its designs on a collection of 1,500 stamps from the 1852-1920 period.

The software that made those designs did a better job than the OP. The issue(s) at hand aren't that someone cobbled together a Frankenstein's monster of a design, borrowing from philately and numismatics and imagination. It's that the execution is poor, the description misleading, and the intent unfathomable at best, suspect at worst.
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Valued Member
United States
141 Posts
Posted 06/28/2022   4:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bubbachismo to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Perhaps the op had nefarious plans all along. Or not. I believe he typed in Google translate to post what we got so perhaps some things changed from his original intent. Or he may just be a shady character trying to do a test before listing. In which case the beginning of this thread may have saved someone from buying a fake. That would be awesome. Or perhaps it was a young kid that doesn't know English or graphic design and upon seeing the thread development disappeared forever. That would suck. We will probably never know. Perhaps it's time for this subject to be moved to the correct category. Hope everyone is doing well, ppg get better soon. Much love to all.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1345 Posts
Posted 06/28/2022   6:00 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The software that made those designs did a better job than the OP.


Don't be so sure, what is shown is the one design approved for production. We are not privy to the thousands of other iterations it may have produced nor do we know the OP's learning curve should he produce dozens, hundreds or thousands of designs.

Even this stamp was belittled when first issued:



Quote:

As an aside like many posters on this site come from a system background and cannot see how this took the OP months to complete. Maybe one hour a week as suggested but even then, manhours seem to be seriously overcounted.


Building my first house took much longer than the later ones. What was your time (3D printing not allowed)? Don't answer, just don't fail to acknowledge different learning curves and tools used.

That said, Alan (not the OP), drove a golf ball 24 then 40 yards--that seems rather pitiful but who am to evaluate his only two stokes? I would think even a systems guy could hit a golf ball farther. A four year old Tiger Woods could. Care to demonstrate? I do wish to warn you the cart rental fees will be somewhat above average.

Just to be fair to Alan's effort, you need to find your way to the Moon before you take your two strokes. Tiger said he'd pass as he is fine with Rear Admiral Alan Shepard, Jr., USN, Ret. having the drive distance record.

EDIT:


Quote:
ppg get better soon.


Thanks Bubbachismo.
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Edited by Parcelpostguy - 06/28/2022 6:03 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
8752 Posts
Posted 06/28/2022   7:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This has been very amusing to follow. Somehow it has devolved into verbose bloviating about technology (digital art, AI, 3D printing) and the lack of acceptance thereof and THAT is why myself and others were succinct in our judgement of the OP's "proof" being trash. Talk about running off with one's hair on fire.

I love technology and embrace it. Notice that my negative comments regarding the "art" never mentioned the method of creation. Who cares.

The OP presented a homemade creation as a "proof" that took months of hard work to create. It is not. It is a picture that somebody drew whether they used pen and ink or a Quantum G20.9 super duper AI digitizing photon spitter with 3D printing capabilities. If it is a "proof" than what is to follow from it? Production? To what end?

It is not philatelic and calling it a Cinderella is a stretch because it has ties to nothing. Not an orginization, celebration, advertising blah, blah, blah. It is no more valuable than those Country flag stickers that people used to place in stamp albums.

As far as it being beneficial to future generations of collectors my own humble opinion is that it will not be because it is not a real stamp.
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Moderator
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United States
10716 Posts
Posted 06/28/2022   8:16 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The OP never said it had gum so calling it a stamp or even label is a stretch, I see it as digital art.
I do digital art stamps too, this one took me about 15 minutes.

Don
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
729 Posts
Posted 06/28/2022   8:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add classic_paper to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I kinda get Monty Python vibes.
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10716 Posts
Posted 06/28/2022   8:23 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply









I have done lots of them :)


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Valued Member
United States
141 Posts
Posted 06/28/2022   8:28 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bubbachismo to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

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Pillar Of The Community
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8752 Posts
Posted 06/28/2022   8:28 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That Jenny stamp is glorifying the consumption of fossil fuels and I wish to lodge a formal protest!

Really cool though.
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