GB KGV Downey Head - Overview And Discussion

Thank-you very much Cjd! That is exactly why I love these online discussion forums, sometimes it is that other set of eyes that can make all the difference in the world!

Check out this link I found after your exceptional search hint!

http://www.filateliaspecializzata.i...tter%20C.pdf

I am so happy I have found this site! Excellent stuff!

Thanks again for the kind words and hint Cjd, I really appreciate it!

Have a good one,

Skilo54

Hi there, how are y'all doing? I hope all is well and your collections are looking as good and your desks are messier than ever! I know mine is!

I have a few things that I would like to add into the mix here on the Downey thread, maybe inspiring some of you to scan and post some Downey's from your own holdings, We'd love to see them!

First up from me is a ½d. Downey Head on-piece with a lovely 1911 First UK Aerial Post Postmark, dated September 9 1911. This one a London Die4 hammer.

First Day of Issue Norwood postmark on a ½d. Downey Head, June 22 1911.

I will wrap it up for the time being with a Picture Postcard medley featuring the front, back and a close-up of the stamp.

The Castle, Dublin:



A handwritten note sending an update:



The ½d. Die 2 Downey Head with a lovely Dublin postmark dated September 23 1912:



Back with some more tomorrow, feel free to add yours in here in the meantime!

Have a good one!

Skilo54

Right on everyone! I just noticed that The Downey head thread has reached over 2000 views! That is amazing, and I thank you all for having a look and contributing when you can! Nice One!

Congrats Skilo on a great thread and reaching 2000 views.

I don't have much to offer I'm afraid, except for the CA item you know about. My Exhibition cuts are with the MacKennal head.

However, I have just found out something quite interesting about our 'CA' friend.



The scan was taken in a plastic sleeve, I have not looked at the item until this morning [I was thinking about you !]. Suddenly the stamp 'popped' up at me.......it is hinged !!
If this was used postally then the sender took a chance that the stamp would arrive OK. Or it is just a piece and he had the cancel available....must have been a Postal worker. Or it was sent and then soaked off and hinged back to the piece. All of those explanations seem highly unusual and dare I say, unlkiely.

Some more thinking needed.....I'll put on my cap.
Hope your cold is getting better.

Londonbus1

It wouldn't be unheard of to lift a stamp for inspection and then hinge it back in place.

The one option you mention that I can't imagine is putting a hinged stamp through the mail, and getting that nice of a strike, to boot.

skilo54
A wonderful article.

Hey thanks for the contribution LB1! I am really excited to hear from you regarding that lovely item! A fellow Downey Head collector has given me a stern warning about these CA overprints and reminded me to exercise caution when stepping into the O/P waters.

I told him that my man LB1 was about as solid as you get, and the source of the material seemed upscale, so concerns of it being forged didn't really cross my mind. I sent him a copy of the scan you have posted and he immediately replied with his thoughts of it being forged, and noted it looked to him from the scan that the CA was over the postmark. He did say that the scan was muddled a bit and it blew apart when he zoomed in, so his statement was based on a gut feeling more than specific evidence. He also noted that the lines of the postmark didn't seem to line up properly, with the lines on the right side of the stamp above the lines on the piece at the top, and below the lines on the piece at the bottom. Now that you have noticed the stamp has been reattached with a hinge, this would make sense, as the stamp probably has a bit of air space under it.

The fact that it is hinged back onto the piece is really starting to make sense to me as I write this reply and I can almost visualize two similar fellows having a similar discussion at one point in the past. They probably decided to lift it to inspekt the back for impressions left by the CA in comparison to the postmark, to see which was applied first.

I love this type of stuff, it really doesn't get any better than this does it!

Thanks for adding it into the mix my friend, and I really look forward to hearing back from you in the near future.

Have a good one,

Skilo54

Thanks for the comments and kind words Cjd and Djd, I appreciate it at am glad to have you both checking in and reading about my favorite stamp, the wonderful British KGV Downey Head issue!

Wait a minute, are you two related?

Haveagood1,

Skilo54

I have just looked through my illuminated x30 Lumagny, and I am 99% sure the cancel is over the overprint.
Having sorted this collection, I am pretty sure that if there was any possibility it was not genuine, it would have been noted.
Let's not forget Gibbons know about it too.
I am no expert on these things, but I can usually tell if an overprint is 'over' the cancel and this looks like it is. The cancel lines are grey compared to the overprint and I can see parts of the line on the 'C'. On the 'A' it is not so easily seen.

More to come I'm sure

Londonbus1

Excellent news LB1, and for the record, I was never in any doubt as to the provenance of this item, or your moral standards as a seller! I found it quite interesting that it had been found out to be previously lifted and related that with a discussion I had with my Downey Head mentor. I would almost be willing to bet that Gibbons may have done the lifting themselves?

I am excited to see this wonderful piece!

Have a good one, and thanks for taking the time to have a gander at it and post your findings, really nice of you!

Skilo54

Finally, after 10 days, countless power cuts and a drain of my energies, I get back to the Downey Head thread.
More specifically, I get back to the Downey Head on 'Piece'.....except it isn't on piece!

It's good place to get back into it I guess, although I cannot now remember all that I wrote before the 'Blackout' !

I went back again to check the overprint and cancel and I believe it still is as I said before, the the cancel is over the CA.
But it was at this point that I had to laugh.
I had missed something, something so simple it could have smacked me in the gob. But not only that, you all missed it as well, at least all those that had an interest in the thread and this interesting little piece.
It was staring us all in the face.
The stamp is not 'on piece'...at least not the kind of piece that we know. There is a number '212' under the stamp which I believe belongs to a Postmark book or Journal and which was copied from the original...it is simple copy paper and the whole 'piece' was made up by a collector......but NOT the guy who owns it !
I believe the stamp was postally used with a Krag Cancel and the [unknown] Postmark collector put this example on one of his pages. Your mate said the lines didn't match up perfectly and he was right...but actually they do.
Let me explain.
The Krag Cancelling Machine was invented by a Norwegian firm and put into use around 1906. I read a reference to the earliest Krag Cancel being 1906 although later found evidence of a use on British Railway stamps in 1905.
The roller cancel was made up of two double-circle cancellations and two Flags [of lines]. It was well known the the Flag lines did not mark the adhesive too well and some cities changed to a wavy line [dotted]. All early examples were from Eastern Europe, notably Russia. This, we could be led to believe, is why the lines didn't match as your mate said.
Wrong !


Now the embarrassing bit!
This is NOT a Krag Cancel ! It is but a poor imitation or maybe a later type. The lines you see on the stamp are also on the page under the stamp !

Theory:

The stamp was taken from a [most likely] beat up piece of paper [Australia House document] with a Krag Cancel and placed over the copied page with the lines [almost] joining up . You will notice the stamp is at an angle...the very same angle it was on the original document.

My attemps to find out if Australia House used a Krag cancel around the years 1912-15 on their official documents have so far proved fruitless. But not knowing for sure is a good reason to keep trying.
I have spent so long on this little piece it seems a shame to give up now !

Then of course there's the utter embarrassment at missing the obvious.........

Londonbus1

I'll most likely add to this as I remember what I wrote during the power cuts.

Another good reason to find out if a Krag Cancel was used in Australia House is to dispel the theory that it might not be a Krag cancel at all !

How likely is it that a similar type of lined cancel existed with the distance between lines the same ??

I just had a look in the new Collect British postmarks and have made a terrific discovery regarding that Krag LB1!

Stand-by for something quite peculiar!

But in the meantime, howzabout some Krag/Downey eye candy! ALl of these are wavy-lined Manchester: