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Romania : Detecting Forgeries.

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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1121 Posts
Posted 10/05/2017   1:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add spain_1850 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I did check them against the samples on the romanianstamps.com website and concluded that the 2 6par stamps are genuine, but m still unsure about the 39par
However, I would still love any opinions on either.
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Pillar Of The Community
France, Metropolitan
3744 Posts
Posted 10/06/2017   09:52 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi: The 30 Par is Subtype 1, Row 1 position 5 in the sheet(1:5).
The exagerated serifs circled are the main characteristics.

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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1121 Posts
Posted 10/06/2017   12:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add spain_1850 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Perf12, thank you for that information. Very helpful. Are the exaggerated serif characteristic for just that 1 position?
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Pillar Of The Community
France, Metropolitan
3744 Posts
Posted 10/06/2017   12:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Exactly
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Valued Member
Canada
19 Posts
Posted 10/06/2017   1:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add alis to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I admit from the beginning that I am no expert in early Romanian stamps (Bull Head 1858-1859 and United Principates 1862-1864) and this is why I avoid buying as I can't positively asses if a stamp is genuine. These are the most forged Romanian stamps due to their higher value and while there are obvious forgeries, there are also very well done forgeries.
In trying to asses them, I am using the Kiriak's Romanian catalogue which the most exhaustive that I know of, but even though is not that easy.
Let's take the 2 "6 PAR" stamps. Although Kiriac's catalogue gives plenty of security elements, is not very explicit in differences between the 1862 and 1864 issues for this stamp. The following 2 images are for both editions:



The only differences stipulated between 1864 and 1862 issues are these:
1. Dimensions: 1862 width between inside borders is 18mm and height between inside borders at the base of SCRISOREI text is 21-21.5mm while in 1864 issue these are 19mm and 19.5-20.5mm
2. 1864: there is an partial interruption in outer border on top of second S from SCRISOREI (14) not affecting the inner border.
3. Bull's right horn is interrupted at star's level (k)
4. Star is visibly interrupted in the third line (m)

Now regarding the stamp supposed to be Scott 16, it's ratio (width/height) seems consistent with 1864 issue, also the dent in the outer border (14) seems to be there. This would make to believe is a genuine stamp but from 1864. The issue is the cancellation (as 6 PAR stamps from 1864 aren't used).
The cancellation is of city of GALATZ as in the following picture:



What is missing is the number (2 in picture) underneath letters NC from FRANCO. Also the stars on left and right should be closer to the border and the shape does not fit very well. Here is an image with cancellation superimposed over the stamp.



My guess in this case is that the stamp is genuine but from 1864 with a fake cancellation. This wouldn't be unusual as there are many such forgeries: using genuine stamp with lesser value and applying a fake cancellation to increase its value.
But again, these are just wild guesses and I can be plain wrong.

Now about Scott 20, this stamp has many of the elements specified for genuine stamps but there are 3 elements that don't seem to fit:



1. The curved base of main R's leg - I didn't see it specified
2. The 2 dots (normally caused by nails) are not specified for 6 PAR stamp, they are specified for 30 PAR stamp though
3. The most intriguing for me are the 4 lines on upper side of eagle's left wing: they should be 3 and they should be longer almost touching the lines on bottom side.
Therefore, I would say that there may be a slightly lower possibility for this stamp to be genuine than the first one.

Regarding the 30 PAR it looks as a Type I as perf12 already indicated (22 out of 40 stamps in a sheet are type 1 including 1:5). Although the exaggerated serifs from second letter R in SCRISOREI I didn't find it specified I must say that perf12 must know better.

Once again, do not take for granted my opinions, they are just guesses and is more like opening a discussion that drawing conclusions.
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Bedrock Of The Community
Australia
38679 Posts
Posted 10/06/2017   1:33 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Nice post ! Alis
Thank you very much.
Saved in my Romanian Catalogue folder.
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Valued Member
Canada
19 Posts
Posted 10/06/2017   4:03 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add alis to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Rod222 for the kind words.

Regarding my previous post, I forgot to mention few things.
The reason stamps SC#19-21 from 1864 is difficult to asses is due to the fact they were the first Romanian stamps lithographed from 40 plates. These plates had many imperfections, therefore there aren't 2 identical stamps. Even 2 stamps from the same position may slightly differ due to ink color variation and distribution. Serious collectors have the whole sheets or parts of the sheets and they are capable to authenticate a stamp because they know all positions. Therefore the 3 differences I mentioned for SC#20 may be legit for a certain position and the stamp being genuine.
The stamps from 1862 were manually done from single dies and they should be easier to authenticate but the problem is to differentiate them from the 1864 issue. Those on (horizontally) laid paper should be easy to tell apart but most of them are on the same wove paper like the 1864 issue.
Even stamps on wove paper can be authenticated based on paper itself but again, you must have seen dozens of certified genuine stamps and dozens of forged ones to start being able to see the differences in paper.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1121 Posts
Posted 10/06/2017   6:18 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add spain_1850 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Wow!, Awesome post and great information alis. It certainly looks like a minefield with these early stamps. Your assessment seems logical to me regarding the cancelled stamp. These are the first of these I have ever owned so I will defer to anyone who has more knowledge than I.

For now, I will identify these as such:
6pa, 1864, with possible fake cancellation
6pa, 1864, possible forgery
30pa, 1864, genuine

I was able to find the exact position of the 30pa on the romaniastamps.com website

Thank you for the philatelic lesson. I love learning new things.
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Valued Member
Canada
19 Posts
Posted 10/07/2017   3:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add alis to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks to you Spain_1850 I rediscovered the site romaniastamps.com that I haven't seen in many years. Now they have few better pictures of the early stamps and even whole sheets of these stamps. Nice.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1121 Posts
Posted 10/07/2017   3:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add spain_1850 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It's amazing what can be found on the internet. I had no idea that site existed until I ran across it being mentioned in this old thread.
Now that I have decided to collect worldwide I am sure I'll find more information than I ever bargained for.
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Pillar Of The Community
France, Metropolitan
3744 Posts
Posted 10/07/2017   5:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
A supplemental link too Romanian forgeries.I don't think it was posted in this thread.IN Romanian..
https://casacudor.com/category/desc...-filatelice/
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1121 Posts
Posted 10/07/2017   5:40 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add spain_1850 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Another excellent website. Thank you for posting this. Got it bookmarked.
It's also worth re-iterating that if you open the website in Google Chrome and "right-click" on the page, it gives you the option to translate it into English. It's about the only thing I use Chrome for, but it's a great feature.
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Pillar Of The Community
France, Metropolitan
3744 Posts
Posted 10/07/2017   5:50 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Just found this.Lot's of stuff to dig through and good pics.
http://www.romanianstamps.ro/s0012_...ietati_1.php
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Edited by perf12 - 10/07/2017 6:09 pm
Bedrock Of The Community
Australia
38679 Posts
Posted 05/01/2023   7:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thread bumped : Dormant 5 years.

Scott #130 1893 "Spic de Grau" (Ear of Wheat)
Bib: Unknown paper from scf member Calstamp, with thanks.


Mine appear to pass muster.


Anyone suggest postmark below?

1893
All watermarked "PR" were prepared
but never Issued.
Value each circa $20

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Edited by rod222 - 05/01/2023 7:27 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United States
2941 Posts
Posted 05/01/2023   9:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add PostmasterGS to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
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Presenting the GermanStamps.net Collection - Germany, Colonies, & Occupied Territories, 1872-1945
Edited by PostmasterGS - 05/01/2023 9:26 pm
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