Question About Expertizing Certificates

I have been collecting for many years, but as a worldwide collector, I have had plenty of "low-hanging fruit" to keep me occupied. Thus, I have no experience with getting certificates for more expensive items.

So, my rather naïve question is if one was going to purchase a "more expensive" stamp, is it generally the buyer or the seller's responsibility to provide a certificate for that item? If it is the buyer's responsibility, how do you even go about getting it expertized before you actually buy it? And is it even a good idea to rely on a certificate provided by the seller (i.e., conflict of interest)?

Guess I'm really clueless about the whole issue

Buyer's responsibility, but you should let the seller know and make sure you can get a refund if it turns out no good. Where you send it depends on exactly what it is, which country, postage or revenue, etc.

Chris: as rev collector said, depends on what you want to buy, and whether it's from an auction house or dealer. Usually, an auction house will have a reference to expertising somewhere in their terms of sale. Likewise, a dealer in good standing with the ASDA will likely have some procedures in place for getting something expertized. Just ask. Myself, I'd be somewhat hesitant to buy something from an online site, like ebay and needing expertization, unless the site was operated by a reputable and known dealer.

The APS probably has the broadest base of reviewers; followed by the Philatelic Foundation. If you're getting into stamps of a specific country, there often will be a specialist society for that country. As an example, if you're getting into Mexico, then a membership in the Mexico Elmhurst Philatelic Society is a good idea ( www.mepsi.org ). MEPSI has an expertization service as a benefit of membership. I believe the APS has a listing of affiliate organizations somewhere on their web site.

Chris,

Here are my thoughts (long time Newfoundland collector):

1. I generally only send an item if I have concern when I see it or to settle a variety issue...and obviously only if the value justifies it.

2. I personally never rely upon a certificate prepared and supplied by the seller--only rely upon an established 3rd party foundation. I have been burnt by one seller who duped me into saying that they had a certificate, but I later checked on the website and it was the same guy. buyer beware with regard to the foundation/outfit--but the web is great for this.

3. The cost of getting a certificate is on you--the buyer. But typically if you alert the seller/auction house that you are bidding on this basis; or even after the fact--they should stand by and refund you if the item is materially different. For example, I recently bought a cover specified to be a First Flight and upon receipt--I have some doubts. I emailed the auction house, and they said to get it and return for credit if it turns out differently.

Chris ----Not sure I can explain myself on a very important subject here .=== NOT ALL CERTIFICATES ARE EQUAL == What that means is that 90% of most certificates are OK . What you need to know is that any regular stamp can carry most any organizations expertise as far as correct identification .They can identify forgery from real. But problem gets more difficult if factors like paper, usage ,cancellations or the existence of a item then only a specialized group of experts needs to look at it. For example I collect German Inflation issues used ,they are excepted only with German expertation a APS or Royal Cert. would not do .
If you have something that has never been seen before, than the correct way to get a cert. is to have that countries premier expert or society issue the cert.
Another example would be early Spain only a Spanish expert organization should issue a cert. because the fakes are so good only someone with a deep understand of all the printings and reproductions can certified them ,a picture or photo can't do justice .

I would add the following…

Older certs often did not carry the actual name of the person who laid eyes upon it, this is something I would make sure of if I were paying for a current one.
Older certs often did not include any condition notes; make sure you understand the scope of the opinion you are paying for.
Make sure you understand the lead time for getting a cert, some require several months before you get it back. This may be an issue if you expect a seller to be held responsible for a sale.
Look to see how they archive and store their cert records. For example, you may or may not want not be able to look the cert up online.
Don

Thanks guys for the very useful information!

-Chris

Certs from the major groups still don't have the name of the people looking at it on them. PSE did that at one time but that ended several years ago (at least 10) when they began doing all certs in house. The more country specific groups might possibly have names on them.

Agreed but I really don't understand this practice, it takes only seconds to capture this important information on the cert. Surely internal documentation tracks this info, otherwise how is anyone held accountable? Why would a customer care that some other company or organization person signs the cert if he/she hasn't even ever looked at the stamp?

If I am paying for an opinion, I want to know who is giving it.

It also bothers me that there is no way to determine the quality of service for the certification companies. No one oversees them, none of them provide stats or metrics on their performance. We know that they make mistakes, but how often? How does a customer determine their track records? Word-of-mouth can be misleading, other customers who have not gotten a cert they wanted may harbor bad feelings towards them.
Don

"If I am paying for an opinion, I want to know who is giving it".
You do, the organization is giving it. The specific names might not mean anything to you, and it opens up people to possible personal verbal attack at a show or elsewhere if an opinion is disagreed with.

"It also bothers me that there is no way to determine the quality of service for the certification companies".
Of course there is, the body of work will speak for itself. If a certification group gets too many wrong it will soon be out of business; there are more than enough individuals out there to spot them over time. Clearly no one is perfect, but using a consensus opinion (as they all do) will generally create the correct opinions.

Respectfully disagree. The companies name is already emblazoned across the top of cert, why have a signature or two on the bottom if the it is just the company I should care about? If the signatures on the cert are simply marketing fluff, then remove them altogether. The only thing really needed is the cert on the companies security paper and a embossed stamp.

My cars have color coded marks on every nut and bolt to designate which assembly line person tighten it. In my companies 'travelers' accompanied every device that came down the line, every person who touched it inspected the work done the step before and the then noted/initialed their work. When we moved to more automated lines, each person scanned their badge at each workstation. If something like this is not implemented, how does a company understand the performance if their employees? Just winging it leads to lawsuits, documenting the performance correctly minimizes this risk.




I thought I had acknowledged (at least in my mind I did )that the marketplace has influence, my point was that this is not quantified. If only as an additional marketing tool, a cert company or organization could easily present the 'accuracy' information. By not doing so they leave the door open to assumptions as to why this is the case. If they have nothing to hide, and are in fact proud of the quality work and service they provide, why not tout it? "We have had 99.5% accuracy rate over the last 10 years" type statement would raise confidence and allow customers to instantly compare it competitively. Do they even mark the known 'mistakes' as such in their databases?
Don

Suppose they did say that they were 99.5% accurate. How exactly would you prove it? Are you actually going to go through 50,000 or more certs to check up?
Most people who work full time at the top expertizing groups have spent decades as stamp describers at major auction houses and have each seen literally millions of stamps. For many of them probably 90+% of all certs are on fairly easily determined items with obvious characteristics with condition the only real question. Obviously they are not all equal, and some are better then others, but the number of items with real potential for multiple opinions or mistakes is relatively small.

Nah, if they already have the certs in a database it is simple query; total certs marked as mistaken compared to total certs issued.

I understand the reasons and logic you have provided and I know that I am barking up a tree here. For whatever reasons the marketplace does not value these things, it is simply my opinion that having qualified accountability would be better then the way things are now.

But this thread is good, at least those who read it will get a better understanding of what they are actually paying for.
Don

wow - that would make it even harder to get an opinion reversed.

True enough. But it would also drive the group to not make as many mistakes to begin with...so I guess it just depends on how you look at it.
Don

These certificates are OPINIONS only - there are no absolutes. Many people have very narrow areas of expertise and it is important to select an expert, or group, who has the best market acceptance of opinion in your collecting area. That is, until you learn enough to judge the validity of an expert opinion yourself.