Identifying Manila Paper And Color Question

". . . they appear to be two different Dies. . ."

Just looking at the two ornaments, it is clear the two cut squares were made from different working dies.

To differentiate U362 vs U367, you need a really good strike to see Washington's queue being untied, tied with a ribbon, or tied with - they never really say what - something other than a ribbon.

I think they are both U362's.

Try getting a 1200dpi scan of just the queue, so we can see how it was tied.

My wife replaces her set every three years. Last time it cost her nearly $1,500!

As requested here two new pictures. I can't get more out of my scanner, but the second one is a photo which perhaps helps identifying the die (I am not sure as well).

About the colors it's interesting that for cut squares Scott just summarized all kinds of colors under the same (like "carmine" in all those cases above although it's pinkish or darker red) while for stamps they are differentiated very fine (like for the 2 Cents with triangles at the top).

Hal,
Indeed, anyone who earns a living that relies on proper color identification should be this prudent.

It is unfortunate that these things are so costly, it makes it very tempting to keep or sell off the old color standards. Unsuspecting people buy these old sets thinking they are still valid for their primary purpose; accurate ID of a color. This is like selling out-of-date food to others; while it may not get them sick there is no telling what the remaining nutritional value might be. I once had a QA manager leaving the Pantone color chips sitting on a window shelf!

Buying and/or using old and previous owned color standard should always be suspect. I have sat through many engineering meetings with color debates and arguments. At other times I was called in to mediated disputes with significant amounts of money at stake over color disagreements. The last thing you want to do is try to defend a color decision with a dated color standard; your wife clearly understands this. Given that no one can be assured that an old color standard is accurate, it is hard to justify holding on to them.
Don

"Scott just summarized all kinds of colors under the same (like "carmine" in all those cases above although it's pinkish or darker red)"

Just one of the reasons a collector of stationery should have a UPSS catalog, which has the ability to identify indicia colors at a much finer level.

And to be fair to the catalog providers, they all often use a color (or colors for modern issues) in the description of an issue. This use of a color name is not intended to be part of a catalog listing. Though it often will coincide with some or all of the listings in the issue.

The UPSS catalog uses the word "carmine" for the U362 issue, as does Scott. Below is an example from the UPSS catalog that demonstrates individual listings within U362 as having a specific color, all the while being under the "carmine" umbrella from the issue title.

"As requested here two new pictures. "

Unfortunately, the strikes on those two cut squares is too poor to be able to examine the queue. Here is an untied queue for reference.

Manila paper:
I just measured, all three U93 2 cents cut squares have the same paper thickness of about 0.10mm. I know an electronic caliper is not the most exact tool, but at least it measures for all three paper types the same error :). So they are more or less the same. Don't know how to handle the conflicting characteristics of this possible manila now (perhaps with: is manila always ribbed or never?).

Pink color:
I show a new photo here, I think it's better (oblique light), and my non-experts eyes do see the ribbon in its hair now, so it would be the same type as the other one.

I read a bit about the manila and wrapper papers. I just write here what I think I found out:

Manila:
- long fibres
- low-quality paper
- many colors possible

But Manila can be:

Wrapper (in my case of a cut square):
- mostly horizontally laid
- no watermark or watermark orientation different from envelopes
- much space above the indicia (more than 10mm) and to the right

Envelopes (in my case of a cut square):
- mostly diagonally laid
- watermark orientation often horizontal or vertical, but can also be different
- not more than the mentioned 10mm space above or to the right or the indicia

I didn't find information about the paper thickness of them. But sometimes it seems that the cancellation can be a hint.

(Of course it would be great to get feedback to the above list.)

When I look now at those characteristics, I am still not sure about my U93 cut square (not laid, no watermark, not too much space around, not very thin or thick). Especially if I compare to another one I have and show here. If I look at the horizontally laid paper of this, the one on the right should be wrapper. If I read now the Scott correctly, the following two cut squares are both manila wrapper paper, although they appear so different. Am I though correct to give them W433 and W301?

"(Of course it would be great to get feedback to the above list.)"

You can add to your list the fact that a lack of a watermark in a cut square does not mean that there were no watermarks in the piece (envelope or wrapper) the cut square was made from. Contrariwise, any piece of a watermark that did make its way into the cut square means it came from watermarked paper and should be treated so, catalog-wise.

Also, horizontally laid paper is an indicator of being from a wrapper, but it cannot be a 100% guarantee of it. A small number of envelopes were cut with the laid lines being horizontal. Some have been identified and are noted in the catalog, others wait to be discovered.

Ok, so at the end those last two cut squares I showed are not to 100% identifiable, as the manila paper (structure) itself is the same for wrapper or envelope, is that then correct?

I could take them as W433 and W301 unless there is a proof that they are envelopes - or what would you do in such a case when the identification is so difficult?

Hi Don,

Re: the Pantone Guides- she doesn't sell them. Now that I'm retired, I "borrow" two uncoated color guides from her storage closet which is where her old sets go; she retains old sets in case a question should ever arise from a client. She's a perfectionist (don't know why she's been married to me for 48 years) and when it comes to printing she demands the best for her clients--color is subjective without a color guide. After about ten years or so she tosses the older guides in the trash…which is where they belong. Before I retired, I had my own set of guides.

Hi Hal,
Understood.
There are some 'color professionals' who replace them even more frequently; in the book Best Practices for Graphic Designers, Color Works by Eddie Opara, John Cantwell say...




Every two years! Yikes!

It is little wonder that so few people/publishers try to print color standards and guides. Not only are they incredibly costly to print correctly, their limited 'shelf life' makes them difficult to trust once aged. Then add in the ephemeral nature of the 100+ year old stamp color itself and the entire color matching process gets a bit dicey.
Don

Thank you for your pantonesque thoughts :), they are true and important. But I am still thinking much about paper here in this topic.

So I still wonder whether the manila paper can sometimes be both wrapper and/or envelope and an identification is sometimes - as for my last shown cut squares - not possible, even not in some expert's hands?

"So I still wonder whether the manila paper can sometimes be both wrapper and/or envelope and an identification is sometimes - as for my last shown cut squares - not possible, even not in some expert's hands?"

It is my opinion that the answer to your question is yes, you could create a cut square that an expert could not determine whether it was from a wrapper or an envelope. Your task would be much easier if you chose an issue on wove paper. And you would want to trim the cut square well inside the right side of an envelope.

Thank you very much for all your help. This was a real introduction into envelopes and wrappers for me. At the beginning of this thread I even didn't realize the "W" and "U" differences in Scott..

So I will take these two cut squares as wrappers with a secret life as envelopes :).