This Cover Is Making Me Nuts

Ken,
Perhaps they just look like perfs, but even if they are not I am still pressed for any explanation other than an altered cover. I just do not see how the missing stamp could have a cancel like this.
Don

Totally agree!

I wonder what might be found underneath these two stamps?

Further:

The blue of the Skaneateles cds on the stamps does not match the blue of the killers on the stamps. Double strikes of the killers and the cds struck twice on top of that? Postal workers then were not known for such overkill.

I'd like to hit the cds at top left with a blacklight to see if part of it was drawn in. Another hands-on test is to see if the corners of the pair are stuck down tight. Even today, people lick the middle of gummed stamp(s) so the stamp corners aren't stuck fast. Forgers don't want you to poke around their work, so the stamps may be stuck down very permanently. Forgers of course are often cheapskates, so I could expect there's a thin behind that pair.

The low strike on the right stamp is "tied" by a very sharp, very dark thin marking that is unlike the barred killer it supposedly belongs to.

The red credit markings don't make sense. One is a "3", the other looks like a "2"; these shouldn't be struck together. They were never meant to tie stamps to covers, but sometimes got struck that way when there was no way not to obliterate part of the address. Plenty of blank space for a credit mark here. Here it looks like they were purposely struck to tie the stamps.

And the marking should be a red "19" for credit to Great Britain. Nowhere to be found here. Nor a red New York transit mark with "19" in it.

With evidence of perfs, then the cover can't date from 1854. So then we should assume that the British marking is fake.

Lots of things pointing to fakery here.

Two things come to mind:

1. Look for the simple explanation. Specifically, the cover has been cleaned sometime in its life. Consider: the sender removed a domestic rate stamp and applied the higher denominations, thus leaving a square of gum to the left of the current stamps. The cancel was fully there when the letter went through the mail. At a later date, the cover was cleaned, removing the residual gum and much of the cancel struck on it. Thus the cleaner area everyone is questioning

2. Blue cancel on yellow envelope will look different than blue cancel on white stamp-paper. Without the cover in-hand I would not question it for that reason.

Has anyone asked Matt about the cover? It might look different in person. I'm sure he wouldn't be selling it if he thought it was bad.

Having a red 3 instead of a red 19 and not having a New York transit mark are not reasons to indicate a fake (sorry for the double negative). Unusual, yes. But they exist for mail sent to England during this era. See Siegel for a handful with the red 3 and also a handful without a transit mark. The "perforations" appear to be fibers in the envelope.

Here's two on a piece from Skaneateles. The 3 is tying the stamp, just like the cover in question.

Having both the CDS and the grid killer obliterate the stamp actually bothers me more than the other issues brought up. Seems like overkill, but again, not unheard of.

Yea the 3 implies it was carried via American Packet vs 19 which would be British Packet.

The only story I could concoct still doesn't quite work, and that is if the cover was re-directed once it got to England via a Penny Red (added+removed) .. but that still doesn't explain the skip in the US CDS, and there is no evidence of re-direction.

I'd certainly pass on this item, as I agree it has too many questions/problems with it.

It looks like this cover was carried on the Collins line steamer "Arctic", which left NY Sep 2, and arrived in Liverpool Sep 13.

That would agree with this being an American Packet carriage, and the red '3' is correct for that.

This also coincides almost exactly with when the British sent many of their ships to the Crimean peninsula (9/54) during the Crimean war. During this period, one sees many more American Packet covers than normal.

None of that, however, makes the stamps on this cover originate properly.

My guess is the envelope has/had a slight vertical fold/crease, like the one under the first "O" in LIVERPOOL, but to the right, towards the top, going through the first "E" in SKANEATELES. That, combined with an incomplete CDS (because the stamp is slightly higher than the surface of the envelope – this can lead to a white gap next to the stamp), makes it look like there was a bottom left corner/left edge of a removed stamp. But it is all just an illusion. The slight vertical fold/crease can make the cancellation look different on each side of the fold. I don't think there is a removed stamp (which would have also been covering up part of addressee). So I would rule out the removal of domestic rate stamp, adding a new pair of stamps, and then a legitimate use to England.

If it is an elaborate, complete fake (removing a stamp, adding the pair, adding the red threes and Liverpool, completing the CDS on stamps, etc.), why wouldn't you just complete the circle in the CDS, if you are going to draw in the letters, etc.?

Depending on too much/too little ink, rolling the handstamp while cancelling, pressure differences, paper folds, creases and imperfections, fibers on the paper, etc., two back-to-back cancellations can look completely different.

Incomplete cancellations on an envelope right next to a stamp happen all the time. Sometimes the stamp doesn't even appear to be tied to the envelope, when it should be. This one just has a weird combination of things that make it look like there is a corner/edge of a removed stamp.

My guess is the postmaster in NYC saw the stamps were not cancelled that well, so he hit them with the grids and 3s.

But there is a reason they call these "opinions"...

I agree with the possibility of some un-even cover surface causing the cancel to be impressed unevenly. John Becker's post addressed this well if that were due to a stamp having been removed previously.

One thing that bothered me about that, is the so-called 'ghost-perforations' in the cancel, which - if from that, can't have happened from a US stamp in 1854. Thus my segue earlier to a possible GB penny red.

The ghost perforations look like fibers in the envelope to me. I'll stand by the statement that there was no previous stamp [in my opinion ].

I think the piece with a similar pair also from Skaneateles to GB but a few months earlier is a positive for the cover in question. It's possible both came from the same source.