Negative Rhetoric Regarding Rare Stamps

I am curious being that I have not been collecting for very long although my grandfather was a collector and worked doing special delivery for 40 years in New York so I am not completely ignorant but I am unable to understand the negative rhetoric surrounding rare stamp finds and frankly I believe its a major cause of the lack of interest in the hobby and its current state. Maybe its me but here is how I see it.

To tell folks it is next to impossible that have have or will find a rare stamp seems pretty baseless and misleading and is why most would be collectors are turned off from the start.

The truth is that errors and new variants of issues can be found by anyone at anytime but not if you are not looking because a bunch of folks told you it would be a waste of time. With that said if nobody is looking for the hidden gems then that only increases my chances of finding the ones you overlooked. Also I have seen statements on this forum such as your odds are 100 times worse then winning the lottery and in my opinion if Siegel's census shows 30 known then if 30 other people found one why the hell couldn't anyone of course that is unless it is known that all have been accounted for. In addition I honestly doubt anyone has full knowledge of all stamps issued worldwide even if someone were documenting this since the beginning well people are lazy, dishonest and make mistakes all the time its how people learn so its highly likely anyone can come across a stamp that is not even documented which is great unless they post a pic on this forum and are told it looks like a shoddy forgerie and toss it in the trash because they listened to a fool.

Just my thoughts would be interested in hearing the reasoning behind the negative rhetoric that killing the hobby one new collector at a time.

Going Postal~

You are missing the main point. In almost every case, the poster is starting with the assumption that they have found a rare stamp. Instead, most of us would prefer that they detail how they eliminated the most common stamps first, before jumping to this improbable conclusion. I prefer evidence and well thought through discovery, rather than a wild guess.

Sure you can find good varieties all the time if you check enough stamps for perfs. watermarks, flaws etc.
Maybe you won't find a British Guiana Magenta but you can find stuff catalogued at hundreds of dollars.
With a lot of experience you'll learn how to boost your chances at this game... but one thing is crucial, and that is to have a specialized catalogue that lists the varieties -- you have to know what you're looking for!! If your budget is limited, then pick up old catalogues -- the prices may be out of date, but the varieties won't have changed.

IMHO, if the hobby is being "killed", it isn't because new collectors are being told that they won't find a rare stamp. While there are collectors that collect to have rare stamps, I believe that the majority collect regardless of their likelihood of finding a rare stamp.

As for your statement: "To tell folks it is next to impossible that have have or will find a rare stamp seems pretty baseless and misleading and is why most would be collectors are turned off from the start."

That is *exactly* what I *would* tell folks -- because it is true. Being next to impossible to have or find is the very definition of "rare".

As steevh said above, experience is everything in this field. Take for example the pair of stamps below:



A NSW 2d De La Rue, Gibbons catalogue no. 192, catalogue value £3 for a single. This stamp was the workhorse from 1862 to 1888 and millions were printed. Yes, there are lots of perforation varieties and some are frightfully expensive.

I saw this piece for auction over the last few months and the asking price was enormous. Eventually the price came down to under A$20 so I bid on it and won. There were no other bidders.

In all the literature there is no mention of double perforations like you see in the middle. There were no examples in any of the big NSW auctions over the last 20 years.

I bought it for two reasons. The first was the potential for a new discovery. After close examination and comparison with other multiples I have, I believe that a fake row of perforations has been added at some stage to the right of the middle row. I accept that I could be wrong, but the fact that no-one else bid speaks volumes.



The second was to get it out of the marketplace so that someone down the track couldn't take advantage of a naive buyer.

With all the focus on the double perfs, I only just noticed the cancellation. Bungonia numeral 34, less than 20 examples known!

The potential for new discoveries in classic philately is always there but I feel the big upside for discovery in this area is postmarks and postal markings.

"toss it in the trash because they listened to a fool" really !!!!! Can you name one example that all the fine people who try to help new people in questions about a forgery were all wrong on this board ,if a few of us disagree then the general agreement is always send it in for a certificate .

The most important part of the first post is "I have not been collecting for very long". Most of the people who comment on the possibilities of some find being rare or not have been collecting many decades, often 40, 50, 60 years or more. We usually have solid well thought out reasons for not thinking an item is rare.

I must differ with the OP. If a newbie collector is easily swayed from the hobby because his/her "rare" stamp is not truly rare or because he/she is told that the chance at their discovery being rare is microscopic, then they are in the wrong hobby. I have never, in my almost 75 years, stumbled across a true rarity. I suspect that I never will. Yet I continue to collect. Occasional scarce or uncommon stamps, those I have found. As a general rule, most of us don't strive to find the rare stamps ... although we will gladly grab one if it falls in our path. While we are collecting whatever interests us, the true rarities are rarely on our mind.

I doubt there is any hobby where low information newbies are encouraged to look for that one in a million rare item as a basis for starting a new hobby. Basing your interest in a hobby only on finding one very rare item is no formula for a long time collecting interest.

How many times have we seen "unsearched hoard" for stamps or coins? The intent is to lure someone to think they can find something of value. They may. These same people go to flea markets looking for the big score.

I get that some people like to spend their time bragging about the deals and finds - just stop by many show dealers and listen. They are not talking about stamps except in commercial terms.

The hobby has both types but we know the initial reaction by most anyone knowing about stamp collecting is how much is it worth. When someone looks at a newly inherited family scrapbook, are they asking how much is it worth? One has instant sentimental value, but stamps requires exposure and then maybe collecting interest (for history, memories, topical, etc).

goinpostal,
Many of the folks in this community have poured countless hours in promoting and helping others with our hobby. And during this empathic effort, have shown extraordinary amounts of patience when they assist less experienced folks.

I do not recall a time when a new hobbyists was shamed or criticized for asking a legitimate identification question as a first response. (But there are examples of people losing their patience after investing considerable time trying to help and the person refuses to listen and pushes back.)

There are 'givers' and 'takers' in this community. You are taking aim at the 'givers', those trying to help others. This community only exists because of the 'givers'; folks who invest in the community. Some donate money, some donate their time in trying to help others. The fact that this community is thriving is evidence it is not overly negative and demeaning to others. Is not being critical of those who sincerely try to help others 'killing the hobby'?

When trying to identify stamps, folks should start with the assumption that they have the most common stamp, not the rarest stamp. The reasons are simple, common sense and conformation bias. But even if a person wants to ignore common sense and be overly optimistic; rarely would anyone here immediately crush their hopes. Far more times than not, folks here will politely help the person identify their stamp by pointing out attributes which zero in on the characteristics. Only if the original poster continues to push back, often with illogical stubborn reasoning that goes on for many pages, do people finally get frustrated. And the most likely outcome of that frustration is to tell them to send the item in for a certification.

I do not understand why anyone would have to 'justify' telling the truth and communicating reality. Rare stamps are rare. Finding a new, significant discovery happens to very few hobbyists. These are facts, why does any have to 'justify' communicating them?

I am proud of the folks in this community and our hobby who work tirelessly to help others, being critical of them seems counter-productive on all levels.
Don

I would make two points: 1) The discovery of a new variety does not constitute the establishment of an instant rarity. The status of "rarity" is only conferred over time. And "rare" does not necessarily equal "valuable" without taking into account the demand side. As for the established rarities (such as the US One-Cent Z Grill), sure it's possible that another undiscovered example could be found, but the chances are infinitesimal (since well-informed people have been looking for decades). This is reality.

2) Few people enter the hobby on the promise of finding undiscovered rarities or gems. Those that do would be better described as prospectors than as collectors.

Don, I have seen situations (one recently) where someone who needs to know what perforations and watermarks are to determine something and they do not understand the concept so come across as obstinate, This was the usual if it was valuable question.

After being told the words not how, the reaction was like you need to buy a scott catalogue, perf guage, etc. so go away and spend the time to learn. This is where having very specific urls helps.

Al,
Do you have a link for the thread you feel was out of line?

The forum rules are simple and easy to understand (i.e. "no personal attacks"). We have no rules for being snarky or judgmental; I have no idea how something that subjective could be feasible in a large pubic community liek this. If folks see a post which they feel is inappropriate, there is nothing stopping someone from sending a private message to the poster and offer their opinion on being 'nicer'. (Of course, if there is a post that is outside the rules or is really bothersome, folks are welcome to 'Send Note to Staff' and Kirk, Bobby or myself will look into it.)

They world is full of people with various personalities, some folks may find others not to be 'their cup of tea'. But it should be understood that we cannot control other people's personalities, we can only control what goes on in our own heads. If anyone runs across another person who they cannot stand, then do not rent head space to that person. This community is by far one of the best around; we have some great folks here and activity is high. Questions get answered quickly, the threads reflect diverse interests. We do occasionally get some native language issues and there are some folks who lack patience. But compared to some of the other forums, this one is stands out.
Don

Hear hear, goingpostal! Over the past 5 years or so, I've discovered 3 examples of 537a, all now with PF certificates. There are valuable varieties out there, if you know what to look for, and keep your eyes open.