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Stamp Grading - Of Value To You Or A Marketing Ploy?

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Posted 01/23/2019   11:03 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"Your 1973 US #66a (Progress in Electronics), olive and vermillion colors omitted, is a fantastic stamp regardless of the grade! What a great stamp!!! I wish I had one myself.All that said, this stamp is centered graded at Very Fine 83. It is not Fine nor Extra Fine. It is Very Fine 83 exactly. At mint not hinged, this is a $821 catalogue value stamp"

You are making up catalog values as there is no catalog that lists a value of $821 for a C86a. Just like you are misrepresenting grades when you say things like Extra Fine 86 as XF is 90 and 85 is VF-XF. And getting a stamp graded doe NOT change its centering, it just makes it easier to sell as a particular grade IF it is done by a recognized authority. I'm done banging my head against the wall.
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Posted 01/23/2019   11:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add SewallH to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
rismoney,

I looked at the Mystic Stamp Grading web link that you posted. It is a total joke. I could tell just from looking that their grades were overinflated. Terrible. As an example I graded one on their "Very Fine" graded stamps and the stamp came out as Very Good 45. That is a huge difference. The stamp was at least overrated by two full grades. If you are going to use Mystic as the reference source for grading, I would suggest that you are making a huge mistake.
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Posted 01/23/2019   11:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
What a joke. Good night all.
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Posted 01/23/2019   11:41 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add SewallH to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Auction house currently claims that this 1873 US #O34 has a catalogue value of $800 in an upcoming auction. What is the grade "implied" by this catalogue value? What is the correct grade and catalogue value?
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Posted 01/24/2019   12:14 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rismoney to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"Grading is so much more than measurements. " - rogdcam

My belief is the opposite. It is nothing more than measurements, and as such is really just one factor at determining stamp value. All the other condition attributes weigh in too. So in terms of valuation, as I have said in other threads, it only matters what the next guy will pay when you sell -regardless of grade...

I guess I don't care enough in general. My belief is that quantification only takes you so far. If $400 was overpriced for the dinos, but $200 was under for electronics, then I'll plow forward with 'win some, lose some'. The catalog values are useless, when it comes to the decision, "do I want to own it".

If I thought of every stamp buy as a business decision, I wouldn't overpay for anything, and not have such a cool collection. I'm not in Cunliffe or Wingate worlds, but I think I have a humble error collection I am working toward.

Owning and amassing modern rarities is priceless to me and I give myself an A in joy it brings. I just wish more people would just enjoy things and not be so exploitative towards others. It's not the company I enjoy being in.
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Posted 01/24/2019   04:04 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
SewallH,
I am a huge lover of technology, as a VP of Engineering at several technology companies it put food on my table for decades. In fact I sit hooked to a machine every other day for four hours, technology is the only thing that has kept me alive for the last 4 years. So not only have I spent my life developing technology that can be applied in our lives I am also now fully dependent upon technology to stay alive.

But this background has also afforded me a good understanding of the shortcomings of a piece of software. As has been previously stated, there is far more that comes into play in 'grading' a stamp than just centering. In previous threads I have suggested that this software be renamed to 'Centering software' to avoid people from being misled that the centering numeric score not be confused with the numeric grading that has traditionally been used in this hobby. The software numeric score for centering is apples and the traditional grading numeric score in our hobby is oranges.

Let's be perfectly clear here. There is only one way that a true grading software can account for all the traditional criteria (centering, condition, cancel strike, faults like re-perfing or thins, sharpness of print, strong color) and that is if it includes user input for all of these criteria. So the software has to have human subjective input to be able to be apples to apples. (I believe that Marios was working on adding support for this kind of user input.) But it is critical to note that these subjective decisions are a part of the tradition understanding of a 'grade'.

Folks should also understand just how hard it is for software to replicate a human thought process. Software is great for repetitive tasks; I know because I have developed software that assists people in their daily jobs. But the process of grading a stamp requires an incredible amount of decisions and previous experience. Let's isolate one of the factors needed for grading a stamp and look closer at what a piece of code would need to do to emulate the grading thought process. Let's consider the 'centering'.

We know one of the great things about software is that is runs the same exact way every time and there is no bias. So if it runs the same way, how does the software account the introduction of the electric eye technology in the 1930s? Before this introduction stamps are much less likely to well centered. So the software would have to identify which stamps were printed with electric eye and which stamp were not and shift the calculations. While this would be complex code, it is still within the realm of feasibility. But the point here is that no one currently in this thread can argue that this is 'apples to apples' even for the core functionality of 'centering'. (We would need Marios to jump in and reveal how his code works.) So none of us can argue that this is apples to apples.

But there is even more to the human thought process that a centering software would need to account for; the space between the stamp designs on a plate or transfer roller. 'Human brain grading' knows, for example, which early stamps had tight layout space between stamp designs and they account for this when they assign a grade. How does the grading software handle this information? It would have to use a 'lookup' (typically a database) and then change the grading calculation based upon a specific stamp design. This would not be a simple exception handling in the code, this would require a large amount of lookup. Again, no one in this thread has access to the source code and can argue that this is 'apples to apples' for 'centering' in any software.

The amount of code and data needed to emulate the things outlined above is massive; easily 1000+ man hours. Marios and others are great coder but I am fairly sure that no one has invested this kind of scope and effort in any grading software.

Sorry for some of this geek-speak but the take-away here is that a human centering grade includes far more than any software does. Apples to oranges just for the centering criteria. When you then add on top of this the additional grading criteria (condition, cancel strike, faults like re-perfing or thins, sharpness of print, strong color, etc.) then the huge gap between the hobby accepted 'grade' and a software 'grade' become overwhelming obvious. No one should be conflating these two things.

Lastly and in terms of the marketplace there are some additional things to consider. In the marketplace 'self-grading', including software based 'self-grading', is not perceived the same as a grade from a renowned organization. In fact, it might actually work against a seller by having some buyers automatically discount or even avoid a sale which contains a self-graded stamp. Also keep in mind that grading is a controversial topic; many hobbyists feel strongly that it has contributed to the destruction of rare multiples. So there is some population of buyers who, based upon their ethics, are not interested in supporting graded stamps.

So even as lover and lifelong supporter of technology, I an not a user of centering software. I would agree that it can effectively be used as one of many criteria in determining an overall stamp grade; but frankly for my collecting needs I am fine with just eye-balling my stamps and using my own judgement and experience to form an opinion.
Don
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Posted 01/24/2019   07:10 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
What Don said.
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Posted 01/24/2019   08:10 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hoosierboy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Morning all,

I agree with what Don said, too

My suspicions are that collectors who think more like investors that hobbyists are more grade conscious. Regardless of the system or software used the grading process boils down to a subjective evaluation. A reasonable inconclusive evaluation of any grading system might be to line up ten copies of the same stamp receiving a similar grade asking folks to rank them best to worst?
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Posted 01/24/2019   08:23 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Grading still comes back to ego. It's a way for some collectors (and I use the term loosely) to to claim to have the finest known example, or at least one of the finest known. To me, a very silly exercise.
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Posted 01/24/2019   11:12 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add SewallH to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
These are all valid points and perspectives and it is great to see so many knowledgeable people weigh in on the subject.

I would say the following: if you are experienced in philately, then you can be held to you own actions and decisions as to what you buy, how much you pay, and how you judge the quality of the stamps you sell and buy.

Where I have serious issues is when I see people or auction houses misrepresent the quality and the price of what they are selling. I see it every day all over the place. My earlier analysis of the Mystic Stamp Company grading internet page yielded disgusting results. This "bastion" of stamp collecting over-grades its stamps by a full two grades. This is a complete ripoff of new collectors who may be just entering the hobby. This creates all sorts of disinformation as the new collector thinks his Mystic-acquired stamps are "valuable", are very fine, that other stamps in his/her collection that look the same must also be very fine, and that a similar looking stamp on ebay must also be very fine, when in fact these stamps are all at best Good to Very Good. And Mystic is not the only culprit. I routinely see this everywhere.

After much thought and discussions with people I consider leading stamp experts, I decided that I would not go down this route. It is bad for the hobby and morally corrupt. I decided that for any stamp that I would sell, I would grade it with precision for centering using computer technology, display the item with 600 dpi scans front and back. I would include in the sale listing the grading documents (often more than one grading document). I would also include computerized perforation analysis so as to insure to the buyer what variety the stamp was and take other necessary steps to make sure that the stamp was 100% accurate in its listing. (I have an interesting story with a Saudi Arabia back of book stamp that had 17 different varieties and proper identification was extremely difficult - but I did properly identify it and proved the stamp's identification in the listing - and sold the stamp at a great price to a expert in the field who understood the identification challenges and appreciated my work). In my listings I also comment about any flaws, cancellations, or other that were apparent on the stamp. I would then price the stamp according to these "findings' and perceptions.
After doing that, it is on the buyer to reach a conclusion (is my information correct, is the price acceptable, and so on). The buyer is presented with more than enough detailed information with which to make an informed decision. There is no phoney baloney.

When I look at a stamp listing, I see none of clarity this from other sellers, except in the very very very rare case where there happens to be a authentication/grading certificate from a recognized appraiser. In fact I find that the vast majority of sellers grossly overrate their stamps and simply make a blanket claim that a stamp is such and such. I routinely see auction houses list catalogue values for a stamp that are as if the stamp is Very Fine and Extremely Fine when in fact the stamp is actually only Good. It is all a scam - an attempt to have collectors overpay for inferior merchandise.

The results of my activities on this front have been nothing short of fantastic. I routinely have buyers that ask that the grading/perforation analyses be included with the stamp I have sold them. They understand that they simply do not have the eye or the skill to perform such an evaluation. I in fact have buyers that then ask me to look at stamps from the existing collection for me to evaluate. In many cases the results of this work leads to significant surprises to the benefit of these stamp collectors.

The other end result of my efforts is that my stamps are generally much more accurately priced and offer fair value to any buyer. In many cases, I have found stamps in my collection that were of far greater quality than I had initially thought by visual inspection. In one case recently I sold an Austrian stamp for five times the catalogue value - and I believe that I was able to do this only because I knew what I had, was able to clearly document it, and was able to price the stamp appropriately.

When I buy a stamp, I almost always grade it myself, regardless of whether the stamp has an official grading certificate or the seller's claim of the grade and the stamp's quality. When I want a variety of stamp, I generally look for the best quality stamp I can find. In many cases, I find stamps that are listed off-the-cuff at the seller default "oh, this is a Very Fine stamp". My analysis then reveals that the stamp is actually superb. In such cases I am able to procure a Superb grade stamp at a Very Fine grade price. Most of the time the listed "Very Fine" stamps are simply Good, Very Good, or Fine.

I am not sure why posters on this chat board do not recognize the common sense value of this approach.

I refuse to participate in this bogus game of stamp grade inflation that pollutes the hobby and rips off new/inexperienced collectors. I have taken specific steps not to participate in this fakery. My approach works for me and works for those who purchase stamps from my collection. I grade my stamps. Enough said.
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Posted 01/24/2019   11:44 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add funcitypapa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
For me personally, if I had to depend on a third party grade to tell me whether a stamp should be appealing enough for me to buy it would take all the fun out of collecting. All of these technological measurements to grade a stamp seem ridiculous to me. You either like the stamp or you don't. You either think it is fairly priced or you don't. It's not rocket science. I appreciate a well centered stamp from classic era as representing a relative anomaly for the times and printing qualities during the time they were produced. I don't need a numerical grade to appreciate this. Contrarily, I shake my head when I see graded certs for stamps produced in the millions or hundreds of million from the last 40 years that receive a grade of 95-100 as if that was a difficult thing to find or such a stamp is worth multiples of catalog value as a rarity. On the other hand, I do understand the game of resubmitting a well centered classic stamp for a graded cert in the hopes that it will achieve a homerun at auction—but for this purpose only, and not for a stamp not planning to be sold. For the purposes of a collector not planning to sell, getting a grade is to me an ego trip and marketing ploy.
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Posted 01/24/2019   11:53 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add SewallH to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
eyeonthewall posted that I am making up catalogue values, in effect of accusing me of posting falsehoods. I take great exception to his post. He has no clue what he is talking about. I will prove that his characterization is completely bogus. The exchange went as follows.
----------------------
My post was......"Your 1973 US #C86a (Progress in Electronics) (note I listed the number wrong as #66a by mistake), olive and vermillion colors omitted, is a fantastic stamp regardless of the grade! What a great stamp!!! I wish I had one myself.All that said, this stamp is centered graded at Very Fine 83. It is not Fine nor Extra Fine. It is Very Fine 83 exactly. At mint not hinged, this is a $821 catalogue value stamp"

His response was.........You are making up catalog values as there is no catalog that lists a value of $821 for a C86a. Just like you are misrepresenting grades when you say things like Extra Fine 86 as XF is 90 and 85 is VF-XF. And getting a stamp graded doe NOT change its centering, it just makes it easier to sell as a particular grade IF it is done by a recognized authority. I'm done banging my head against the wall.
-----------------

I stand by my catalogue value for this stamp. In fact, I will show a completed auction listing for this stamp from Raritan Stamps (which I did not use for my catalogue value in my post) that clearly shows their listing of a $800 catalogue value. Their $800 is close enough to my $821 in this case. Eyeonthewall's representation that there are no catalogue values for this stamp at this grade is wrong and his claim that I am making up catalogue values is bogus. He should have done 30 seconds of work before making his erroneous statement and accusing me if posting a falsehood about this.

The Raritan lisiting is as follows....
-------
219 ** C86a

Air Post stamps
1973, Progress in Electronics, 11c multicolored, top sheet margin single with vermilion and olive (litho) omitted, full OG, NH, VF, C.v. $800
-------

Anyone here could have found this is two seconds on the internet.
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Posted 01/24/2019   12:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
You do realize that a Raritan Stamps auction is not a catalog (a stamp catalog that typical hobbyists use to lookup stamp values)?



Don
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Posted 01/24/2019   12:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cjpalermo1964 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I decided that for any stamp that I would sell, I would grade it with precision for centering using computer technology ... In my listings I also comment about any flaws, cancellations, or other that were apparent on the stamp. I would then price the stamp according to these "findings' and perceptions.


Do you understand that your computer calculation of centering is not a "grade" as used by PSE or others? The centering calculation must be blended with an assessment of other attributes on the same basis that PSE or others use; if not, you are actually making the situation worse, by overloading the term "grade" which injects more uncertainty and inconsistency into the market.

Unless you can accept this as a flaw (or at least a difference) of your procedure as compared to establish practice, this conversation cannot advance. This is what Don meant by "apples and oranges".
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Posted 01/24/2019   12:28 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Those "other attributes" are why the PF only grades sound stamps. That way, there are no "other attributes".
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