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Pillar Of The Community
United States
6433 Posts
Posted 02/02/2019   7:35 pm  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add revenuecollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Well... not exactly, but a ticket nonetheless.

This is one of the most unusual items I've seen several years. I know I ended up overpaying for it, but it falls under that category of "when will you ever see another one?" I've certainly never seen one before... and may not again.

It is a Civil War-era photo (Carte de Visite or CDV) depicting the grand prize in a raffle, with the CDV also acting as a raffle ticket.

So what exactly is the revenue stamp paying the tax on?

1. It's not the lottery ticket tax, as that tax was repealed in July of 1864.

2. It falls within the 2-year period that CDVs were taxed. One could make the assumption that it is de facto this option, however the cancel initials are not that of the photographer, as would be expected. Also, photographers would frequently gang-affix revenue stamps and pay tax in batches rather than affix revenue stamps on every individual item.

So my guess is:

3. Because the initials and hand of the cancel match that writing the ticket number and name on the ticket, this is presumably either the person running the raffle or the purchaser of the ticket, paying tax on the $1 ticket cost.

I could easily be mistaken in my interpretation, so I'd be interested in reading other opinions.

Regardless of which tax the stamp is paying, it is an incredibly esoteric item.



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Edited by revenuecollector - 02/02/2019 7:42 pm

Bedrock Of The Community
United States
10633 Posts
Posted 02/02/2019   7:54 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It has to be the photo tax, it's the only tax applicable at the time. And lottery tickets had a 50 cent tax in any case. I don't think you overpaid, however. Lets see how long it takes to find another example.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
6433 Posts
Posted 02/02/2019   8:21 pm  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add revenuecollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
So there was no tax due on the $1 payment for the ticket itself? It doesn't make sense to me that a third party party would be paying the photographer's tax. Unless for some reason the raffle tickets were sold out of the photographer's studio and the tax paid one at a time as individual raffle tickets were sold.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1851 Posts
Posted 02/02/2019   8:33 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cjpalermo1964 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It is unusual for another reason. The locomotive appears to be a model, as it is on a stand and the wheels are not flanged. If so, this would be one of the earliest model railroad raffles or sales ever recorded and would interest historians of that hobby. The $300 number is puzzling me, though. Is that the retail value of the prize? It seems very high. Is the model shown a stand-in for the real prize?
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Bedrock Of The Community
12569 Posts
Posted 02/02/2019   9:08 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It must have been the model value since my research shows that locomotives in 1865 cost around $16,000.

https://books.google.com/books?id=5...cost&f=false

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Pillar Of The Community
673 Posts
Posted 02/02/2019   10:37 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ClassicPhilatelist to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, but in 1865 a $300 "model train" would be equivalent in today's currency $4,500. No way that "model" would cost that much, unless it was made of solid gold.
I think you're ignoring the 00 after the 300. There is no decimal. The spacing is "unusual", but not crazy. So I think it's suggesting the engine is $30,000. Which is more in line with what was mentioned for the cost of an engine. (More reasonably than $4,500 for a model).

The revenue stamp IS for the photo. Notice that the ticket, the photo is applied to it. It's not printed on it. And in 1865, there was a tax on photographs.
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Bedrock Of The Community
12569 Posts
Posted 02/02/2019   10:47 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Classic - I completely disagree. The odd item out of the group would be a $30,000 locomotive. No, it was a model. Besides, they would have had to sell well over 30,000 raffle tickets. No, I do not see them having a choice between jewelry, a revolver or a locomotive. It is nonsensical.
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Rest in Peace
United States
4052 Posts
Posted 02/02/2019   10:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ikeyPikey to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
.
The price is written as "300 00"; as the three following prices are clearly aligned (ones column, tens column, etc), I think we need to figure out why the price is U$D 300.

A working desktop-scale model is out of the question, but would a static model with a zillion small moving parts not cost a small fortune?

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey
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Bedrock Of The Community
United States
10633 Posts
Posted 02/03/2019   12:28 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The stamp was probably signed when the ticket owner signed the ticket. As long as he had the pen in his hand, he signed the stamp too. The govt didn't really care who signed the stamp as long as someone did.
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Bedrock Of The Community
12569 Posts
Posted 02/03/2019   06:42 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
My vote for the train is that it is a "live steam learning toy" from Great Britain. They were heavy and expensive according to this article.

https://www. (20140417) Site Not Allowed .com/model-trains/steam

The link is disallowed but suffice it to say that the information and the pictured item match up well.
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Edited by rogdcam - 02/03/2019 06:44 am
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United States
12330 Posts
Posted 02/03/2019   07:32 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I would guess that it was a model relating to the 1865 Lincoln Funeral train
Don

The funeral train carrying the body of President Abraham Lincoln from Washington, D.C., to Springfield, Ill., made a stop in Joliet on May 2, 1865
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Valued Member
United States
59 Posts
Posted 02/03/2019   9:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add BaldEagle to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
There was a General Grant Funeral Train, also, which was very similar to the Lincoln one when Grant died. So, the cover in question probably was his, not Lincoln's.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
713 Posts
Posted 02/03/2019   9:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wkusau to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Grant died in 1885. The raffle was in 1865 so probably not a grant funeral train.
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Rest in Peace
United States
4052 Posts
Posted 02/03/2019   9:51 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ikeyPikey to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
.
People decry the state of American politics today, but in 1856 we had fisticuffs on the floor of the US Senate, to wit:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...ed_in_office

An anticipatory mock funeral train, OTOH, would be protected speech.

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey
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United States
1773 Posts
Posted 02/03/2019   10:12 pm  Show Profile Check KRelyea's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add KRelyea to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

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Bedrock Of The Community
12569 Posts
Posted 02/03/2019   10:42 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Great job finding that Ken! The model is pretty close to it in appearance. The stack and some other details are different.
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