Unusual Terms Of Sale Regarding Certificates?

I was looking at a dealer's website recently. Under the terms of sale, I see that they have the usual "will grant an extension for obtaining a certificate". Also, it has the standard exemption that items with a certificate within 5 years cannot be returned. However I saw a couple other items regarding certificates/authentication that seemed a little harsh.

-No item may be returned if the item receives a new certificate overturning the opinion of a previously issued certificate.

-Any item being returned must be returned with any and all certificates that originally accompanied the item. If an expertizing body requires that an older certificate be included with your submission, you are not to provide that earlier certificate.

What do you think?

Sounds like they would never see a dime of my money.

I'd move on from that seller and never look back.

Big DITTO.

What a slippery slope that is. Avoid at all costs. That is the same as passing counterfit money and knowing it may not be real. If they are a member of a dealers association, I would bring it to the associations attention.

What US state is the dealer in? Consumer laws differ state to state and I believe that 'second hand goods' are typically covered differently than 'new goods' for defective items or those which are not correctly described.

There are also US Federal Trade Commission laws which prohibit deceptive claims and may cover stamps that are not identified and sold correctly.

Note: I am not a lawyer, may be talking out of my butt, and just throwing this out there in case anyone wants to dig deeper into the issue (or already knows the laws).
Don

I tend to agree with the "avoid" advice ... too bad as he had a nice stamp I've been wanting for quite some time. Not going to risk spending my money on it if there are doubts to any guarantees.

I found the second term odd about not sending in the old cert if submitting for a new one. What could be the logic behind that? I assume it has to do with not wanting the old/new cert correlated in the PF or PSE database.

I can see only one reason for a certifying agency to receive a prior cert on a submitted item, and that is if you are paying them to re-examine or make a change (i.e. removing grading, or correct a typo error) to a cert they issued TO YOU on that same stamp very recently.

Otherwise, I would not give them an old cert, even if they "require it". How are they going to know, unless they issued the prior cert (and bothered to check)?

Prior certs get sent in all the time; either the actual cert or the number and certifying body.

Well, if you are bad seller and you have stamp with a clean cert and on re-submission the stamp gets a bad cert you throw-away the new cert and sell the stamp based on the old cert - if you turn in the old cert you can't advertise the stamp as coming with a good cert. Without a cert, the buyer is more likely to submit for a new cert rather than just relying on the existing cert (since overturned but with the new cert thrown in the trash).

I'd love to hear the dealer's side too. The approach described in the OP (ill-conceived or not) suggests dealers are frustrated with buyers, also with certs and their inconsistency.

At best, the dealer's side sounds very dicey.

For those curious, the dealer in question appears to be Alan E. Cohen.

http://www.alanecohen.com/terms.htm

Another point of contention is that they don't cover the cost of bad certs on items they sell.

seeing the full T&C, I think he is saying that he won't refund based on a new cert outside the 10 day period for requesting an extension. I have had good dealings with Alan - not sure why he insists on return of the original cert.

I have done business with all types and make my purchase decisions on an item by item basis and essentially blacklist nobody. There may be times when these terms are totally reasonable and others where the seller should just be tarred and feathered. Buy the stamp, look at it, and return it if it isn't any good. Get some high res scans of the front and back. If you aren't going to buy the stamp tell us where we can look at it, please.