Proposed Merger Of The APS And Asda

You can't get rich buying stamps, unless you plan to sell them for more money than you paid. This happens in the following ways:

1. Information disparity between seller and buyer. The buyer knows something the seller doesn't. They get a "deal on something" then exploit it on the sell side. This is what dealers try to repeat. You generally can't, due to things like auction commissions, and other fees that eat into margins.
2. You buy in bulk. Like those mammoth collections, and then break them into smaller pieces.
3. You specialize in a particular sector (like EFO), where you just buy all the stamps regardless of price, double all your paid prices, and just wait until someone wants something they can't get anywhere else.
4. You have a rich grandma/grandpa who sank tons of money into a collection, and you inherit. Most of the time these people did not spend a ton of money, but you think they did. Chances are you're already wealthy, since you inherited everything else from grandma/pa. If you're not already wealthy from them, then you probably won't get wealthy from their stamps.
5. You find an inverted Jenny in a pile of stamps. <--- Better odds at Powerball. This is where people get hung up, thinking they found a z grill or other rarity.
6. You flip lots of stamps at small profits and work really hard to list them, go to shows, eat crap food and stay at motel 6's.
7. You sell supplies. More than likely people need mounts, catalogs, and books, than they need any one particular stamp.

edit- a major thing to realize at this stage in collecting, is that based on the number of generations since the 1920-40s, it is even more rare that a collection of real value is sitting untouched for 80-100 years. The attics have been gone through, and the discoveries are nearly all complete. Exceptions are definitely possible, but the likelihood has gone down significantly of new finds of classic material. People like Uncle Jimmy's card collection, are the sensationalized Powerball winner, and not you.

It may not be prudent to collect stamps to make money, but it should not be accepted that you need to take the proverbial bath when selling. I know of very few people that advance to buying multi-thousand-dollar stamps with the mindset that it was all "sunk cost". That is laughable. I have owned a number of such stamps (no, I am not wealthy) and would never have purchased them if accepting that it was a virtual total loss. Talk about something turning people off from the hobby. That attitude will do it for most people.

Part of the challenge for me was buying at the right price and recouping my money when selling and I have done pretty well in that regard. It funds more collecting efforts. If it was all sunk cost, I would have stuck with building a collection of minimum value stamps and calling it a day. That is fine if you want to collect that way, but an entire world of such collectors would quickly lead to a dead hobby because the auction houses and quality retailers would all be gone.

Let's be realistic about expectations.

Realistic? I'll simplify with a pure 20% rake.

You buy a stamp for $1000 at auction. You pay over $1200 to get the $1000 stamp. To sell it you need to pay another 20% say $200
if the bid only goes to $1000. You made back your money? No, slow down young fellah. You took a 40% bath on your stamp rental. Not including all the other fees.

You go to a dealer? It's worse. They suffered the 2x20% rakes, (maybe got a discount for being such a good hustler w/ the auction house), and they have to sell it 2x cost, just to stay in business and keep up their advert budgets, or other overhead.

Enjoying is the name of the game, sure. But don't for a second think that this is all "fun and games" between friends.

A lot of it is not, but a lot of it turns out to be that way on the dealer level. It all depends on who one is discussing. The stamp market has it's little cliques and friendly buy/sell arrangements and non cutthroat competitions, just as it has some dealers who really dislike some others and some who are totally cutthroat.

Your numbers are simplistic and (no shock here) intended to reinforce your argument. I guess you missed my "buying at the right price" comment.




That makes no sense. The point of my commentary was that as a buyer you need to be smart. No one is putting a gun to a buyer's head to buy from a particular seller. Build a relationship with a quality seller. In the case of US material, I recommend someone like Christopher Rupp but everyone is different and has their own needs. Again, be SMART.




Not sure where that came from. I cannot find any comments stating that it is "fun and games between friends". Could have missed it though. Approach the transactions as business deals and be SMART.

By now you will have seen that the key is to be SMART and keep emotion out of the equation. You will do OK. I have. Otherwise, I would have moved on long ago. Nobody wants to take a bath no matter what they claim.

The entire premise that you will always be hosed is false and cynical IMO. Just put in the work to acquire what you want at the price that you want and don't be impulsive.

Cynicism is not a good look for the hobby.

PS: This old dude thanks you for the young fellah comment. Then again age has nothing to do with making intelligent business and entertainment decisions. Ask Elon.

I agree with everything you said. I sort of misspoke on the dealer part, but the gist is the same nonetheless. Dealers need to markup their merchandise to create margins. If you are dealing in higher end stamps where velocity isn't as high, they have to sustain themselves for times when they don't make a sale.

Either way, you do need to be smart. But I don't think this is exclusive to stamps. The same goes for baseball cards, beanie babies, or video games.

To rope this back toward the topic-
Noone will protect you from your own stupidity. However, I do think it's a good thing for dealers to participate in a network that has core values around ethics and responsibility and membership has some sort of meaning or evaluation process. With the hobby always seemingly in question about its size and strength, I think such a thing reinforces it as being part of a network of hobbyists. I think radio folks have something like the ARRL and becomes a stepping stone for growth and learning.

Truer words were never spoken. That and greed seem to drive many buyers that can't resist bidding on that 99 cent start ebay auction for that "rare" $5000 cv stamp. We all know which sellers have become successful preying on the stupid and greedy. If you combine BOTH of those things all hope is lost.

On the other hand, if one is smart, knowledgeable, and a bit lucky, ebay can be a very nice place to shop.

RE: 'People are stupid' or 'can't fix stupid'
I am unsure why this part of the discussion was ever raised, seems like it was only mentioned to serve as a straw man argument. I see no post in the thread where someone said the 'we can educate everyone' or 'education will fix the entire problem'.

The issue that was raised was this;
1. - Is there room for improvement in buyer education?
2. - Specifically, is there a need to educate buyers for not just simply WHAT they are buying but also WHO they are buying from?

Don

I think it is clear that the answer to both questions is clearly yes.

The tangents seem to point back to the stated and maybe unstated motives behind the merger / alliance idea/. I have not heard anything very specific about the goals except for the vague "good for the hobby". Will it increase membership and revenue (dues or otherwise)? If no tangible results, beware.

APS will likely fall below 25,000 next year or so and do not think this merger will affect this in any respect. Disgruntled buyers (especially non-members). shrinking dealer network, or not very good dealers are NOT the cause of the drop.

I will note people join something because they get something in return. Unfortunately, many good things have disappeared due to lack of creating an interest. Other than the journal, from what I see from stats on stamp store, circuits, expertizing, library, etc. most members do not use these services. It is about staying relevant.

At this point, we don't expect membership to drop below 25,000 by 31 December 2023. Over the past four years, the soft spot in decline has been the pre-1974 life members, who received a life membership at no cost. Annual membership for the rest of the membership has remained more steady. Based on statistics, we should see an overall increase in the next 3-5 years.

The top three utilized services are: The AP (95%), website/newletter (73%), and library (65%). Content and education are the biggest drivers of the utilization of services. The three biggest cost drivers for the APS, and by extension, the membership, are paper, postage, and people.

Regarding the proposal to merge, the lack of detail is because there are folks 'in the know" falsely stating it is a "done deal," while at the same time, I have repeatedly said we can't put a detailed proposal together with the detailed ASDA financial or membership. In my statements, writings, and again on Thursday with the board, without that information, I won't even ask the Board to vote to hold discussions to develop a measurable plan.

This is pretty much why I put a laser target timeline on the proposal to either fish or cut bait. We'll see if we can even get to the courting stage.

Scott

I used the library once to get an article from a society journal in the last 5 years. I wonder how my use appears in the statistics since the period of time is needed to give a perspective,

APS and ASDA developed separately for good reason. I just don't see how a dealer oriented organization can add to what I seek in the APS-neutrality and research. Dealers buy and sell, APS' role is much wider.

After Epting's resignation from the ASDA, it smells even more.

Bad idea.

From Mr. Epting'e statement:

"I joined the Board of Directors of the American Stamp Dealers Association because, like many in the hobby, I feel that a strict code of ethics for stamp dealers is of the utmost importance in creating a safe and trustworthy marketplace," Epting said.

"I also believe that a strong organization must be in place to effectively enforce such a code, and that this organization be on sound financial footing and have capable leadership in order to not just survive, but grow in the future.

"Unfortunately my time on the Board has left me uncertain of these facts, which is why I am announcing my resignation from the Board effective immediately.

"I look forward to contributing to future endeavors to make the philatelic marketplace as safe and secure as possible for all those involved."