Philatelic Foundation Database And Submission Research

I have yet to see anything in this thread that is an "elephant in the room" other than annoyance that the PF does not accept credit/debit cards.

It's not about what I like or don't like, but about me not being complacent when things can and should become better.
It's like telling the House Committee on Ethics to "go elsewhere if you don't like unethical behavior". It's not going to happen.

The customer has a voice, and a very important one, last time I remembered.

It would be more beneficial to collectors if they donated to groups like StampSmarter, or even to individuals freely giving incredible insight within this very forum.
Change my mind.

That's not my annoyance at all, revenue collector. Just a small piece connected to an overall concern.
I have nothing against the PF "as a company". I'll just leave it at that.

Again, it goes back to being something that simply is not going to be a common occurrence.

It is a common occurrence.
The 63 Dot in U was my first example (out of many) that you can plainly find for yourself in the database.
It will only be labeled as such if the submitter submits it as 63var.

It would help if you stated how old those certs are. There was a time when such things were not mentioned unless marked, but I don't think that is currently true.

There is an extra fee if you want your stamp plated. Does that extra fee apply if you want a variety confirmed that is not otherwise numbered?

IMHO, if anybody chooses to exclude the PF from their expertizing list because of not accepting credit cards they are shooting themselves in the foot. The PF is still the gold standard of expertizing for US material and a PF cert will add value to your item, often in an amount that far exceeds the cost of the opinion.

I'd rather send money to you, Rogdcam;)
You're a good guy.

Bart!! YES!



It is certainly in their best interest,



What you say here is exactly true, and would have cleared up any mistrust if it weren't for these 3 requirements:

1) the submitter has to play the professional before submitting it to them (even though it doesn't matter what they think in the end anyway)
2) the submitter encloses money for what they think they have (even though they are not the professional)
3) the random amounts of "real" money are enclosed (secured) before the grading process begins (rather than setting a flat price that can be adjusted after expertization).

If the money can be adjusted in the end, then why on earth would reqs 1, 2, and 3 be required at all?
Why not just set a flat rate for all submissions that the PF would adjust once grading is finalized?

Because their main priority is to secure a profit, and these 3 requirements are the best way to squeeze and secure all possible profits from each submission. This is also why the reasons for each requirement are not discussed in detail (we can get into this later if you want, but there's a deep psychological element involved here).

Now why is this even a bad thing?

Because they are prioritizing a business model over honest research, despite claiming to be a research group first while receiving the benefits of such.
If they were to spell it out like I did above, they most likely wouldn't qualify to act as a non-profit.

It is highly unethical and deceptive, but actually quite brilliant...

This discussion has gone off the rails with a big dose of tilting at windmills.

The PF is a NON-PROFIT and are doing a good job at NOT making money since they report a healthy LOSS each year.

They require payment based upon what you THINK the item is because if they did not, they would end up being screwed every time that "rare" stamp ended up being that low value stamp that treasure hunters just abandon.

I am at a loss as to why the cynicism regarding the PF. They are one of the great assets to our hobby. Lots of other truly malicious actors to direct energy towards.

The rates exist the way they do because of something called "insurance". The basic rate covers time and effort by the various people involved, which are not just the "experts", but also those involved in the behind the scenes office work necessary for the PF to function. Added fees for more expensive items are required because of the aforementioned insurance costs. It is really not that difficult to understand.

Haha, they can handle it.
It's more like a healthy skepticism from questions that can't be answered by them to the customer.

All points I've brought up are only assumptions that can be made because lack of clarity. Even if it's the most reputable company, and their process isn't clear, it's good to express skepticism.

To Bart-
Could you give a small example of it being for insurance purposes? Does it tie in with what Roger says?

I can't find that on their website, but their terms and conditions implies that all risk is on the submitter except "mishandling by a PF employee".
Seems like a HUGE ask for something that probably almost never happens.

Gunna give a big ole' NOPE on that one.

I'm personally no fan of the PF's antiquated policies and mechanisms, but you seem to be waging a one-person war against the PF on nonsensical issues that virtually no one else is seeing as problematic.

It makes me wonder if it's because you received an opinion you didn't like and are thus using this forum as a revenge mechanism. The whole thing is extremely suspect.

This thread went beyond "healthy skepticism" when it charged PF with practices that are




and posited




I don't understand how we went from "I'm sad that they won't take my money in a form that I like" to "they're a wretched hive of scum and villainy."