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Please Help USA 5c Blue Washington

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Posted 11/25/2014   2:49 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add LarryBruce to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I got this in a 15 lb. box of stamp material yesterday in the mail. It looks like Coil Perf., Vertical- looking through the gauge, lining up with the holes, Perfs. it looks like 10 Perf.

1.)What Scott Number would it be?

2.)Is it bluish paper?

3.)Question on Perfs. the clear Perf. gauge do I line up dots in cut out part of Perf. or on top of what is left of the cut Perf.?





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Posted 11/25/2014   3:05 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add JLLebbert to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I see 3 choices ... Scott 447, 458 or 496 ... but I don't have enough expertise to determine which.
447 is flat plate with watermark.
458 is rotary press with watermark.
496 is rotary press without watermark.
As I recall, none of the bluish papers were coil stamps.
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Posted 11/25/2014   3:08 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Rileysan to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Most likely a Scott 496 (perf 10 Vertically). On cover value of $3.00. Not on blue paper - no coil stamps exist on blue paper. I think it's a great cover!

Brian

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Brian Riley
APS 223349
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Posted 11/25/2014   3:18 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LarryBruce to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank You.

Did I do the perfs. right? I just now figured out how to make that scan with the perf. gauge, I think it came out well in the picture.

I guess to tell watermark or flat vs rotary I will have to soak this stamp off the paper?
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Posted 11/25/2014   3:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wt1 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I suspect we can rule out 447 because it is relatively scarce and its value is even listed in italics in the Scott Catalog in used condition. But in order to be 100% sure, you have to measure the IMAGE of the stamp. If it is a 447 (flat plate) the image would measure 18.5-19 mm (wide) by 22 mm (high).

More than likely, you have one of the rotary press varieties and, if so, the measurements would be 19.5-20 mm (wide) by 22 mm (high).

As stated above, if the difference between a 458 and 496 is whether or not it has a watermark, there would be no way to tell for sure which stamp it is while it is affixed to the cover.

Incidentally, I'd keep that cover intact, as the addressee, G.W. Saunders, Ltd., was a stamp dealer in London, England (as evidenced by the ad below) and would likely have some specialized interest in those who pursue such postal history items:

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Posted 11/25/2014   3:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Nice cover, with such a late usage it is very likely unwatermarked.
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Posted 11/25/2014   3:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LarryBruce to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks.

wt1 that is interesting.

I don't know how to measure it, can it be done on paper? Think I have seen people discuss measuring stuff here in the past but I used the method of aligning a rotary press and flat plate together to get one bigger then the other to figure it out. I need to brush up on that sort of thing, foggy memory....
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Posted 11/25/2014   4:49 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dudley to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, you did the perfs right. Line up dots on gauge in perf holes.
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Posted 11/25/2014   5:18 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LarryBruce to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Excellent, thank you...
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Posted 11/26/2014   01:07 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cfrphoto to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I see 3 choices ... Scott 447, 458 or 496 ... but I don't have enough expertise to determine which.


The flat plate 447 should never have been a contender. It is a noticeably intense blue shade, especially when compared to the rotary press coils. It would be helpful to follow up on visual clues before posting all possible choices when at least one is not possible. The key to separating most flat plate and rotary stamps is to look at the overall appearance. Rotary press stamps of the period generally have less intense color and definitely narrower margins.

Getting more technical, rotary press and flat plate perf 10 are not the same. Perf 10 flat plate perforations are spaced slightly closer together than the rotary perforations (flat plate spacing .079 inch and rotary .090 inch). Both gauge perf 10, because a perforation gauge can be used to filter stamps into groups, but it cannot be used for measuring. The best way to check perforations is to use another stamp in the same series with no perforation varieties.

Even more technical is that the perforations on rotary press coils are aligned between rows while flat plate perforations are generally not aligned. Up close, pressure ridges on one side of flat plate perforations are top or bottom while they occur on one side each rotary perforation hole. Finally, another variety, 496a, is listed in the Scott US Specialized catalog. It is one of the wet printing "small hole" coil perforation varieties.

Clark


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Edited by cfrphoto - 11/26/2014 01:22 am
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Posted 11/26/2014   11:50 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Rileysan to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Very useful information, Clark. Thank you!

Brian
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Brian Riley
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Posted 12/15/2014   12:25 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LarryBruce to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I was reading some other threads on this site today about the foil test to determine flat plate or rotary press, would that "foil test" work in this case to tell if it is flat or rotary? I tried using some foil, it was rather thick and used for covering a roasting turkey but it did leave an impression in it when rubbed on the stamp with a Q-Tip. I don't have the other stamp to align the holes as shown above is why I ask. If need be I can go to the store for thinner foil vs buying the stamp to align.



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Posted 12/15/2014   01:08 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
You either misunderstood or were misinformed about the purpose of the foil test. That test is meant to help distinguish engraving, which is a type of relief printing, from offset, which is a form of surface printing, along with lithography, typography, and others. Relief printing will leave an impression on the foil while surface printing will not. Flat and rotary press printing are both types of engraved printing, and both will normally leave an impression. Distinguishing those two is done by measurement or direct comparison, since a flat die image on a rotary plate will stretch when the plate is curved for the press. So rotary plate stamps will be longer in one direction or the other in comparison to the same design on a flat plate.
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Posted 12/15/2014   01:31 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LarryBruce to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I see thanks for the explanation,

so what is the scott number of the stamp pair to measure these holes, perfs.?

I guess I need to go buy that stamp to measure as I have no other way to measure, I am assuming.
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Posted 12/15/2014   11:35 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Historical DNA Collector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
When dealing with the Washington/Franklins, there are 3 types to consider: offset, flat plate, and rotary printing. As essayk noted, the flat and rotary print stamps will normally leave a visible impression using the foil test. The images you posted of your foil test confirm that it is not an offset print so it is either a flat plate or rotary print.

As essayk noted, the main difference between flat plate and rotary printings is that rotary prints are larger in one or both directions. A very accurate measuring device such as calipers can be used to see a difference between the two types. Comparing a suspect stamp with a know flat plate print is a very useful method to help make the determination without needing special measuring devices.

So first you need to identify a flat plate stamp. The surest way is to identify a stamp that was only issued as flat plate. Take a look at http://1847usa.com/index.htm and identify a design type that was only issued as flat. It doesn't matter what series it came from nor the denomination. Compare that stamp in both directions with your suspect stamp. A rotary print will be significantly larger in one or both directions, typically by more than the width of a frame line.

Alternatively, you can select a stamp that is known only as a rotary printing. From Clark/cfrphoto in an earlier thread:


Quote:
For rotary press sheet and horizontal coils, a 1, 2 or 3 cent Presidential issue will work just fine. Any Fourth Bureau rotary press sheet stamp or horizontal coil will have the same design size. Any stamp not matching the height of a rotary sheet stamp or the width of a rotary horizontal coil must be a flat plate printing. It is almost always possible to start from a stamp known to have been only produced one way, like a 7, 8 or 9 cent Prexie.


To make your flat plate comparison stamp even easier to use, consider cutting out the four corners as shown at: http://1847usa.com/washfrank/printingmethods.htm This makes it easier to see the differences without the margins being in the way. There are many cheap stamps to choose from.

Their are also other methods to help make the distinction. Flat plate prints usually have "set-off" (also often called the confusing name of "offset") on the back which appears as specks or even lines of the same color as the design ink. Rotary nearly never has set-off. Of course, this isn't useful with your stamp being on cover. The line detail is typically different between the two. If it has coarse lines, then it is most likely a flat print. If it has fine lines, then you need to look for the larger design size. On the left is rotary and flat plate at right:



The differences between the 3 types become easy to see by eye when you've identified a fair amount of each type.
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Ryan = HDNAC = DNA = HDC = Hysterical DNA Collector = Historical DNA Collector = me who just loves stamps :)
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Posted 12/15/2014   12:50 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LarryBruce to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Rotary Press, right?

The subject stamp is bigger then the template Scott#332 flat plate stamp. (http://www.kenmorestamp.com/flat-vs-rotary)

(How do I know it was a #332 - it said so on the back in pencil from some other collector.)

If this is correct I will save the template to use again and again and thanks in advance for all the expert advise in teaching me how to do this.

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