How Much Do Damages Hurt Value On Higher Value Used Classic?

Ray -- Yes, I get you! In my imagination, I am assuming that the stamp would pretty much meet the condition requirements (VF+ centering, light cancel) to reach SCV *if* it weren't damaged.

So if you had a stamp that really looked good enough to reach SCV, but then had hidden damage .... where would the value go?

This is a very interesting thread and it's just recently that condition has made it into the equation of my stamp purchases. My original stamp collection from when I was child is reminiscent of the Island of misfit toys -lol! I, however love them to death despite it all! Now, however I'll make sure it will at least retain the money I lay down for it if not more unless it's a very early classic and I see one for a low price then I'll snag it- if for nothing else a reference copy and the immense joy I get out of inspecting said example. It's only then that I will decide if I should pay the big bucks, for what I like to call "A keeper!" or not. I have been stung in the old bill-fold more than I should have and consider it a lesson learned and now usually consult the forum if I'm unsure.
I know that some of you dis-approve or maybe just don't understand the way I do things, but it makes me happy and is a huge learning curve for me to actually get to hold a stamp in my hand/tongs that I thought I would never see in person- let alone own! (because I have children and am not wealthy) So, I guess it comes back around to "there is no wrong way to collect".
I will say that I am now more involved than ever in my collecting and am just now starting to "dial in" my collecting area of interest, so the suggestions in this thread are becoming vastly more relevant to me. Thank you all for the tutelage on this matter everyone. -Jeff

I will say this though- If I find a #38 for under $200.00 in decent shape I'm going to grab it!

Yes, ILS, this thread has also been invaluable to me. I have had the WORST luck with hidden/undisclosed faults on the higher values this past few months and this thread gave me the guts to stand my ground and return them when the certs didn't come back clean.

My luck has in fact been so bad that after returning several (and I would have returned my zeppelins if the seller hadn't point-blank refused after I had already accidentally left feedback), I have sworn off the classics / higher values for now.

It's all been very disappointing - the certs themselves of course put me out quite a bit of $, and in the end it was for nothing (although I do try to love my zeppelins despite all!).

Still, I am very grateful to the SCF crowd (and also to BW) for helping educate me to minimize my losses. Thanks, everyone!

--Jan

Personally, I can't imagine why someone would shell out hundreds of dollars or more on a rare stamp that was not either previously certified or conditional on getting a certain. One of the first questions I ask myself when contemplating the purchase of a raw but rare coin or stamp is: why hasn't this been previously certified or was it indeed certified and the cert tossed out due to the result

True, assuming we're talking about sound or almost sound stamps. If the stamp in question has a very high catalog value, but is faulty, the choice whether to certify becomes a bit murky.

Why? Because the expertization companies want 5% of Scott REGARDLESS of the condition of the stamp. Thats all fine and dandy when you're pretty well sure that the price the item will bring is a large percentage of Scott, but faulty stamps are a crapshoot, and paying 5% right off the top could be a fairly large portion of the item's actual value.

So why would anyone even consider a spacefiller without a cert rather than a better quality example with a cert? If it's a stamp that catalogs so high that a "decent" one is simply beyond your means *AND* you have the knowledge to determine yourself whether or not it is real (obviously this does not apply for all stamps or all collectors).

For example, if I encounter an extremely rare imperf or part perf revenue that is part of a multiple or tied to a document, the expense of a cert on a subpar example would be like burning money.

Many of my online friends routinely obtain certs. Most of my "bricks-and-mortar" friends rarely (never?) obtain certs. There is plenty of good stuff out there without a cert.

Nothing wrong with being skeptical, and it is smart to carefully assess all factors, but lack of a cert shouldn't be given too much weight.

My 2d.

Funcitypapa: It is a good question and one I will obviously ask more often now.

OTOH, the mere existence of a prior cert is hardly proof that a stamp remains sound to this day. Accidents do happen ... It might be wise to get a re-cert anyway, so in that case, my initial thought was: why worry about whether you get one with the stamp in the first place?

My second theory was only to buy pretty much "faultless" examples, from respectable sellers with good feedback.

I guess I have learned the hard way that even when an apparently respectable, established ebay seller, specializing in rare/high-value material, says unequivocally that a stamp is "perfect", "faultless", "a gem", etc., that may still not be true. Frustrating, but I am not sure that it was entirely foolish of me to assume that such a seller would not risk their reputation by selling such faultly items.

In any case, I'm still cutting myself a little slack -- I have only been focusing on US for under a year, and my vast GB collection has been built up over 45 years without these kinds of investments.

BW was kind of enough to recommend a couple of sources for the future, and for now, as I said, I am focusing elsewhere in my collection (precancels, here I come).

Btw, you reminded me that I wanted to share some other info to the group in general: not all of the stamps were in fact previously uncertified -- one of them had a small pencil mark on the back that turned out to be marking a rather large thin from when BW certified it before, and that cert was neither mentioned nor provided to me.

This is in response to Cjd. Yes, there likely are many nice items out there that nonetheless have not gone through the certification process but what I am referring to is the truly rare items, not the expensive more available items. For example it would not surprise me at all to see the items referred to in the original posting such as a higher value columbian or trans-mississippi item even 292-293 to occaisionally pass through without a cert particularly if poorly centered or clearly defective. But any well centered and apparently sound example of those stamps should have a cert. And while anyone can occaisionally find a needle in a haystack, my inclination would be as I said previously to wonder why it didn't have a cert first.
This is totally different with rarer stamps such as no grill pictorials, high value grills,1875 and 1880 reprints, #55-62 etc for which a cert from someone even a first impression by Bill Weiss for example would appear to be mandatory. Weiss himself tells you that 80% of all 19th C material submitted to him as sound turns out to have some flaw. That is not a reason to not buy the stamp. But it should give some pause to those of you out there who fashion yourselves to have the skills of the experts. That is why they are the experts. This does not mean that in a specialized field like revenues that Revcollector can't be both a collector and THE expert. But that is a different set of circumstances than some of the posturing I have seen on some of these posts implying that in general you could do as good a job as the experts. If that was the case, maybe you should open up your open expertizing service to compete with Bill and the big boys. Set your prices reasonable enough so that fellows like me, not as knowledgable as you would not be hindered in getting an opinion due to the % charged by the big 3. That, in addition to speed, and general quality, is Bill's main thrust--reasonable prices and a flat fee.
Finally, what is it with this habit of "quote:..........." I always have the feeling that when someone feels the need to quote in italics or parentheses from a comment someone makes, that it sort of a "gotcha" game. Can't we communicate and even disagree respectfully without that kind of stuff?

funcitypapa, I use quotes to keep a flow to the conversation, and to make it easy for the reader to quickly know what it is that I'm replying to. In a thread that is collecting some responses in quick succession, the "quote" feature seems to me to be a polite extra step to take.

I try not to use the "quote" feature in pursuit of the "gotcha" factor; then again, I try to avoid the "gotcha" factor altogether.