RB10A?

OK, I seen this revenue stamp on MOMEN's ebay store (I do not ever use this seller by the way) but I noticed that he has a revenue stamp that is signed and dated "Nov.1778"! there wasn't stamps then especially like these and it looks almost like a rubber stamp done it as it looks to have been gone over with a fountain pen while the ink was wet and then smeared? The vignette is a very poor likeness of George Washington and I'm just not convinced it's legitimate? Can anyone shed a little light on this for me?

here is the link:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/momen-US-St...em2c64c83c46

I'm not sure I can help much, but I would share the following:

1. The date is not Nov. 1778, rather it's Nov. 17, 1878. This makes complete sense, as the stamp issue in question was in use from 1873 until the revenue tax expired on June 30, 1883.

2. I can't speak for the authenticity of the stamp, as that is out of my area of expertise. However, it is interesting that the Scott Specialized Catalog for Revenue Stamps shows the RB10a as being printed on violet paper. The paper types on these issues are at times quite subtle, so I would have to defer to more experienced Revenue collectors to determine if this is the true paper type. (It probably is, as the $11,000 catalog value is based upon that type of paper and, believe it or not, it is the lowest valued stamp of that variety.)

3. Since the stamp itself is considered quite scarce (italicized listing in the Scott catalog) the question as to whether it may be legitimate (i.e. authentic or fake) is a valid question but again it would have to be referred to a Revenue specialist or Expertizer to confirm.

4. The listing for this stamp does acknowledge that the stamp has been repaired, which could explain the foxing and smeared print in the center of the stamp, which appears to be where the repair occurred (in my novice opinion).

I can't say that I'm convinced that even a stamp of that scarcity is worth more than 10% of catalog value, considering it's repaired and all. However, as is typical of many such issues, the catalog value is merely a guide and the "real world" value essentially comes down to between what a buyer and seller agree upon.

Your absolutely right about that smeared appearance as it looks drawn & painted in at the center left into the portrait so that's probably the repair -over Washington's face. That would make much more sense. Thank you.

Momen always aims high. I'm sure he'd take $1000.00 for it in a New York minute. Repaired or not, it's a very rare piece.

This stamp has a history behind it. It has been sold by Spink Shreves twice in the last year, the first time for $600. I don't know if that buyer returned it or reconsigned it for the second Shreves auction.

It would be worth picking up for $200-300 as a joke and/or spacefiller but no more, as it is about the UGLIEST RB10 you'll ever see.

I'm actually surprised Mustafa bought it, as his material, while insanely overpriced, is normally of very high quality. This eyesore pulls his entire inventory down.

Regarding violet versus green papers of the early proprietaries, there is actually a continuum of shades, including some that actually look bluish-green in hue, but are considered intermediate stages of violet paper, and NOT green paper. Some of the distinctions are very subtle, and expertization is recommended on any of the denominations where there is a large value difference between violet and green paper.

Personal in-hand examination is absolutely required. You cannot rely on scans or photos for any of these distinctions, as the colors get distorted.

There has been some contention that the RB10b doesn't actually exist, that the known example is just an intermediate shade on the far end of the color spectrum.

I have actually examined this stamp. The reason it looks so strange is that practically the entire middle third of this stamp including the portrait and much of the lathe work is drawn in! That is the "repair" that is being spoken of. It was a fine job of drawing, but as a stamp it is worth perhaps 5% of cat to someone desperate to have an example and unable to buy a fine one. Believe me, I truly understand both the desire and the lack of funds, but the only way I would take this stamp is as a gift. Personally I would consider any money spent on it to be wasted.

Its real, pretty ugly though. Then again.. look at the mutilated one Aldrich has for sale and he's asking 1750 its worth about 3% of catalog as a space filler.

Although you have to laugh... the numbers don't add up.. every time I see an auction house or dealer list that there are 74 violet paper and 50 green.. its impossible. There is a guy from Illinois, and also Kingsley who both have verified more than 74 violet paper stamps and both have totals over the 120 mark. How can you have a 100% or better survival rate on stamps that were mostly used on the exterior of good and shipped in and out of the country. I better guess would be closer to 600-700 stamps produced if not more. So as for rarity.. yes rare.. but not worth the hype most of the players would have you believe.

According to the Boston Book, there were 74 violet and 50 green paper stamps sold to taxpayers for use. All the others were destroyed when they were no longer needed. These were printed by the National Bank Note Co., and the NBN records were in the hands of the writers of the Boston Book at the time of writing the book.
I am not sure how anyone can positively verify that there were more, since auction houses have only been photographing them for auction catalogs for about 35 years or so. There are currently 26 RB10a and 3 RB10b certified on the PF site (I did not check for duplication). Siegel power search has 30 RB10a and 2 RB10b (again I did not check dulication). The survival rate for these is fairly high for such a large stamp, but the 74 and 50 quantities are pretty well established from the records. 600-700 is an impossible number, there is absolutely no evidence that there were even 10% more than the ANBN records indicate.

If you do a little more digging you will find that the 50 and 74 reported in the Boston Book are the figures of the amounts issued during the time of Carpenter's contract until 1875. He then turned over the other already printed stamps plus finished the remaining sheets that had not had the medallions and Washington Vignettes added. So far records indicate that there are 4 different rb10b's out there a fifth one existed but when resubmitted it was later deemed an rb10a. Also the numbers don't jive. but if you check the chart in the back of the Kingsley book, you will find correlating issue numbers make some sense as to how many were printed. The book shows a number of orders in the 1000's just for the $5 alone. The problem is no one kept accurate records (or they were destroyed) of the amount of stamps delivered by Carpenter. Up until 1879 there were orders of 618 stamps until fiscal year ending in June 1879. and if you add up until December of 1879 you get 788. (neither number is divisible by 18) but to date I have not seen a $5 recorded with a date of 1880 or later. (neither had kingsley in his 3 decades of searching) Most likely they ran out and switched to another type of stamp. Figuring that unless the stamps were printed by a cost basis (by carpenter) the stamps could have been printed by a quantity amount (per sheet) meaning that they most likely were printed by a set number like 35 sheets or 40 sheets if that makes sense. (my guess is 40 sheets) multiply those figures by 18 and you come up with a possible rationale of how many exist.

Personally I don't see Carpenter printing only 7 sheets and 4 being violet and 3 being green when you read the explanations of 3 different papers (violet, chameleon, and green shipped in different time periods) plus look at the dates of the stamps with the cancellations of the green paper. The Morton Dean Joyce stamp resurfaced in the year 2000 and is dated July 9 1879

If you read Mckeel's newspaper from 1917 it talks of the discovery of the hoard from England 15 years prior (Kingsley also mentions this in his book) I am sure the Mckeels is where he got the info. 37 copies of of the $5 alone...

Take the quantities known to have been verified, the numbers of orders, the cancellation dates recorded etc.. it suggests the American Banknote company ran out of stamps somewhere during 1879 going back to the quantity ordered up until that time.. add up the numbers and you arrive at 600-700. Now add in what we know about survival rates of rare stamps commercially used can't be 100%.