A Washington Franklin "2 Cent 2" Assistance Please?

OK I have been going through a huge pile of Washington & Franklin stamps and have all of them ID'd except a lot of the "2 cent 2" Washington stamps. I been using the 1847 website for a ton of fabulous help but I just run into a snag. I chose a #332 (a "TWO CENTS" version) to make a template from to help me with the flat plate stamps. However, my #332 template seems a bit smaller so can rotary press printed stamps get ink on their backs? Maybe the drum spun and left the ink to accidentally get on the reverse sides of these or should I use another stamp besides the 332 for a template?

These are all perf 11 I'm dealing with as I already I.D.'d most all of the perf 10's & perf 12's #406's,#499's,#463's...etc..ect..

Thank you for any help or suggestions you can offer


Second question- How much would it cost to get a stamp graded? Can you get a used stamp graded? The reason I'm asking is I found what I believe to be a genuine Scott #461 perf 11, Type 1, single line watermark. I triple & quadruple checked it and I'm pretty positive it's a #461. Hey, 1 out of the 300+/- I just done isn't too bad! lol I still have that many more to go too! ha-ha-ha... Thank you again. -Jeff

About the template - a high quality scan of the width difference would be helpful - the difference will not be slight, the frameline will be non-ovelapping.
About the SC461 - I would suggest a low cost Bill Weiss certificate to start with, even used ones need to be expertized as mis-identifications can occur with the watermark - OR - fake perforations added to SC 409.

Thanks chasa. I know the perforations are legit and I got the type correct but I'll have to investigate that further at another time. Right now I'm more curious if I should make another template or not? As the numeral 2's (red Washington). The margins on them are wider on the flat plate then they was on the per 12, "TWO CENT" (#334) that I done earlier? I was just curious if they was the same dimensions as the 334 and if it would work? Understand?

Some of the numeral 2's that I'm doing look like flat plate printings from the ink on their reverses, but they (the margins) are a bit wider than the cut #334 I'm using as a flat plate template? I'm attempting to distinguish the rotary and offset printings from flat plate. I done the perf 12's already so I just have the perf 11's to do yet.

I'll scan some stuff tomorrow, I'm just not up to it this evening.

What most people don't realize is there are differences in the size of flat plate stamps. The 332 probably wouldn't be a good choice although the rotary stamp would be very much larger than it . Booklet stamps are even small so don't use one of those. As a template I used the 499. Now I use a Sonic Imaging gauge. I've found some flat plate stamps that were .25 mm smaller than rotary. All a bit confusing but the best way is to study the differences between rotary and flat plate and only measure the stamps that are the rotary type II or III.

Thank you Bill that was very helpful! now if I can only find an easier was to tell offset from rotary I'll be all set!

EDIT:
I was wondering if it is at all possible that the rotary press printed stamps could have the ink transfer on the backs of them like the flat plates most times do? Thanks.

Jeff, 461 has a very distinct color, a washed out pale-carmine red color. I've had mine for years, and it has an APS cert:



This one isn't a high-res copy, but should give you an idea on the color, and the lack of sharpness in the appearance.

Also-- a much more difficult stamp to find used than mint. But if you found it in a pile, I would think that it has a better chance of being genuine than if you found it for sale, or in an album labeled as 461.

Definitely would need a cert, as this issue (as is 519) is notorious for fraudulent copies-- but as I mentioned in the previous paragraph, since it's in a pile, you have a great chance, if there is a clear watermark, and the color and image are similar to the one in this image.

Good luck- Ray

The rotary press won't have any ink on the back. The offset doesn't either. The offset stamps are smaller and the color and appearance are different. If you have a sc 492 or 488 you can get a better idea of a rotary stamp. The rotary waste is just that. It is the end rolls when they made coil stamps. They took the end roll cut them into sheets and ran them through the perforating machine. I'm working on a large project right now but will try to get some pics up tomorrow.

OK then thank you. I don't know how to take a picture of the watermark to show it? I use a SG detectamark and usually I can just put the lens in the view-port however this is a partial single-line watermark and it just doesn't want to show up and a shot or scan of the front wouldn't prove anything really as it would just look like a regular old 499. I think I will send it out to Bill and see what happens. I also think I found a #500 but before I declare it so, I will make darned sure. I have a humongous pile of them from my buddy Kris who buys collections and gives me the Washington Franklins because he "don't like to fool with them" so I have about 5 collections worth of these to go through. Anything is literally possible! I'll let you know how I make out. Thank you everyone for the assistance!

I'll probably put the doubles up for trade or auction when I'm through.

Ray.mac the one I suspect as a 461 looks like you described. A good description would be a dull rose looking color not the typical shades of carmine that one is accustom to.

It was really hard for to understand color and details on stamps until I got a huge amount. I say huge, but it was at least 1,000-1,500 of the 2 cent Washington mixed together. I never counted because as I removed them from paper and sorted them out I had piles all over the kitchen for days. Needless to say my wife put an end to that. So I took my stacks back into my office and placed them in Vario stock sheets. When you get the different stamps next to each other then you notice the differences. I have about 500 of the offset perf stamps. I sorted those out. That hurt. The only reason I did it was to gain the knowledge of the differences. Otherwise they carry no real value. The Scott 499 though is kind of interesting. It looked like they started out using the carmine red typical of stamps from the mid teens to a carmine rose that gives it more of the appearance of the rotary press stamps. Some of those had good toga lines and buttons. Yet when compared to rotary they were still smaller.

I think the rotary stamps look fuzzy or almost cartoon-ish looking. They're getting a little easier for me now, It's doing all the type I. through IV. and their sub divisions- eg: a,b,c, etc... and all that nomenclature that's involved..It's not so much hard as it is time consuming! I have though, learned an awful lot by doing these and even more with help from the board members. I now know to never EVER trust the numbers scribbled on the backs of them either! ha-ha!

here is a small list of the actual piles I have lying around sorted- 331, 332, 334, 338, 374, 375, 376, 377, 378, 405, 406, 416, 424, 425, 425c, 428, 461, 462, 464, 466, 498, 499, 501, 502, 503, 504, 506, 507, 508, 509, 510, 511, 512, 513, 514, 515, 516, 517, 518, 526, 529, 530, 543, 546,...still got a big mound to do yet! It funny in a way that I got these when I did because just I was hunting some to do just days before that. Weird how things work out sometimes isn't it?

A few more days and you will be cursing the darn things. I either bundle them in stacks of 100 and wrap them in parchment paper and store them away. The truth is most of what is out there on sales and auction sites have been through multiple times. You can still find some unsearched stamps but you have to look hard.
I didn't see any coil numbers. What, you friend is keeping those? You are right about fuzzy printing. I think it was the ink they started using. The US was getting most of their ink supply from Germany. That ended with WWI. Even after the war there were supply issues. I have some of the Germany 1 mark stamps with prewar and wartime printing. They had the same problems after the war. The real issue with fuzzy printing is that markers used to differentiate the type II & type III rotary coil is made very difficult. I have hundreds of the Scott 492 type III and a couple I think are the 491 Type II. The type III will sometimes show type II markers. The only thing I could do is pull the ones that had all of the markers as type II. Earlier printing seemed to be more clear. It is easy to the differences in the early printings when they used the German ink. If you need a couple of the type III let me know. You need a rotary to gauge the flat plate against.

Thank you Bill. As far as coil numbers-I just haven't got that far yet. The latest collection he got had everything in nice and neat and orderly except the Washington Franklins, they was in 2 sandwich bags stapled- yes stapled to the back of the binder! lol You could just see the collectors anxt all over it..lol The old I'll get around to it pile you could say.

Jeff, if you can post the 500, I'll be able to ID that one very easily.

Good story, I made a trade in about 1989 with a guy I had met at the local monthly show in St. Paul-- my 1936 Scott world album that was creamed-- not much in it of value, for his cigar box filled with 2c red WF's. He ended up getting a job with H.E.Harris, and was promoted to President of H.E. Harris-- I can't remember the name, though.

I did think I found a 491, and told Bill Weiss years later that if he found a watermark on it, I'd eat it. I didn't eat it, but there was a watermark (454, not 491). But I did find 2- 500's. Again, the color is so deep and so different than the other 2c reds, and once you know what it looks like, and what to expect to see on the Toga rope and button, you just can't miss this one.

So if you get a chance to post it, I can definitely let you know on that one. Here is one of the 500's I found in my cigar box:



Ray

yeah I'll take it out of my heirloom album and post it. It has a perfin on it too. I'm pretty sure on this one so I hope I'm right! lol