Show Or Bourse; What Teaches And Who Learns?

In the current issue of American Stamp Dealer and Collector, John Dunn makes some comparisons between stamp shows and bourses at the level of what is instructive for the newby collector. (Thinking out Loud: "Ye Olde Stamp Showe (or Bourse)," October 2013, p.68). Whereas some have said that a stamp show is the present replacement for the old time stamp shop, Dunn asks whether that is something that ought to be said of the bourse. Without being negative about shows in general, Dunn makes the point that newer collectors do not learn as much about collecting from looking at exhibits as they do from the chat with a dealer in the bourse. He defends the bourses that have no show attached as being at least as useful for the promotion of the hobby as full service shows that have the bourse, exhibit floor, agenda of meetings, special programs, and so on. Dunn applauds those dealers who seek to be sources of information about collecting as well as sources for material, and would like to see some promotion of that kind of approach on the dealer side of the table.

It is best to read his remarks for yourself, but assuming I have given a fair summary, what do you think of his comparison of shows and bourses as places of learning about the hobby for new collectors? If we assume that getting material is a major given at a show or at a bourse, what else draws you to take the time to make the trip to attend a show or bourse?

I think Dunn's point about a competitive exhibition not being a particularly fruitful learning ground for new collectors is worth thinking about. I tend to think, as he seems to as well, that beginning collector's don't learn as much from exhibits as more seasoned ones. Formal exhibits can be overwhelming for the viewer as well as for the collector challenged to create one. Would you agree? I think that exhibits are useful as tools for learning among more seasoned collectors who know what they are looking for, and at, and are trying to do something with the material they have. Does that sound like a fair assessment? What do you think?

I've definitely learned more from dealers than any exhibit in my own personal experience. It's a more direct learning experience - one on one, usually combined with hands on experience with material at hand.

I've tried looking at exhibits in the past, but many times the information is either broad and an inch deep (i.e. like a classroom textbook) or too tightly focused and dry (informative, but not entertaining). As a result I shy away from them completely, but people have different learning styles and interests so to each their own.

As for the collector-dealer learning relationships, it is also a two-way street. Dealers also learn from the collectors - not only to ascertain buying habits, but many collectors are more specialized in their collecting fields than the some generalist dealers.

I don't collect and display toy trains but if I were to go to a show and view a massive, highly complex (and expensive) train layout I would be very impressed. The fact that I might need and electrical engineering degree to wire something that complex, or have a small fortune to spend on a new hobby, would not deter me from being interested in learning more about the hobby. The fact that people are that motive and seem to enjoy the hobby to that level would speak to me in a positive way.

Of course, I am not sure that I would even be standing there considering trains as a new hobby if I was asked to pay an admission fee just to enter the show. But perhaps that is a different thread...
don

From my personal experience,( my methods of collecting and identifying material suit my hobby goals ), I found interaction between collectors to be more valuable a learning tool than dealers . I have no problem with dealers other than the fact that they must "buy low" and sell at a "high price" . That is the nature of any collectible business . I have seen a dealer at the mega event in NY argue with a collector who had a late confederate states cover over its authenticity because the envelope was made from wall paper . Near the end of the civil war the south had a shortage of paper ( envelopes ) . That is a historical fact . That particular cover ended up at a auction house documented and realized a larger value than offered by the dealer . There is another posts on this forum about stamp grading systems which can very form dealer to dealer . Those anomalies promote higher retail prices . I think the trick is finding a "honest dealer" who seeks to educate and cultivate a returning customers . No disrespect to Mr. Dunn. He writes very informative articles.

I would not expect all dealers to be knowledgeable in all areas of this hobby. That would be along the same lines for a software engineer to be knowledgeable in all computer languages. Not likely to happen. If I come across a dealer who is trying to sell me something and this dealer is trying to come across as an expert in this area, he better be.

Recently at a show in Atlanta, I had a dealer show me a type Va Scott #24 that was a type V. It's easy to tell the difference and when I corrected him he checked Scotts, said nothing and did not change the description or price of the stamp. I asked him about it and his reply was to ignore me and walked away to talk with another customer. Needless to say I didn't purchase anything from him.
At the same show, another dealer saw me coming to his table and told me he had nothing to show me, he knew what I collected and I have dealt with him for years. I ended up buying a space filler Scott 122 from him, it had a tear along the bottom but nice color and fairly well centered. He did have a type V #24 in his book, priced reasonably, for a regular type V. He didn't realize that it had the long double curl. We haggled on the price some, agreed to a price and then I showed him the curl. I also paid him the original price. This was one of the few occasions where I was able to pull one over on him. I like to haggle over the price of a stamp be it a fifty cent item or a $50.00 item, its part of the buying experience that I enjoy.

Two dealers and two ways of dealing with a customer and both experiences were completely different.

Art

As in exhibiting so it is also in bargaining that ego and one-upmanship usually play significant roles in how the process is driven. While there are always exceptions to any generalization, do you think that is a point to be taught to the newbie?

Art, what, if anything, do you think either of those two dealers would be good at sharing with newbie collectors? Or "intermediate" level collectors? Presumably you are an advanced collector who knows how to stand on his own in a particular field. If a dealer had the right attitude, receptive to being shown what he does not know, how could the advanced collector be a resource for the dealer?

One of Dunn's points is that dealers need to be shaped and prepared to serve as mentor for newbies the same way that shop owners used to take customers under their wing. But in that model I see a continuity problem, inasmuch as the shop keepers were able to mentor repeat clients they saw more than a couple of times per year, but dealers who travel from bourse to bourse do not have that. Do you think they would be able to do something like mentoring if they were accessible online?

Just trying to visualize how to make Dunn's idea practical.

Not sure if your addressing Art or the participants on the thread . Please excuse if the former is your intent .


The value in my opinion of exhibition is it shows the new collector methods and techniques of collecting. The logical way at which the collector arrived at their exhibition . I have seen exhibits with less than perfect material for example the Freddy Mercury collection .Which was exhibited in 1995 in Toronto Canada. It was a side exhibition to the main exhibition which was Queen Elizabeth II's collection . ( Quite famous and world redounded ). Neither collections would be possible to duplicate nor attain by an average collector at any level of knowledge. But the way they were formulated , mounted and assembled is valuable information to the average collector. For example Freddy Mercury mounted his collection (while he lived in Africa) on black photo paper the " best solution at the time" to preserve his stamps from humidity. Granted a collector who collects for profit maybe discouraged by the rarity of the Queen's collection. But of course the motives and drives of new collectors vary.

Essayk,

1. I don't think the 1st dealer would ever be a good mentor to a newbie collector. He was so set in his ways, so sure of himself, so much ego that I don't think he cared about anything except his next sale. The 2nd dealer is an active member of a stamp club in TN and may be a mentor, I don't know. His day job has nothing to do with stamps or the collecting of stamps. Nor does he have a store front. He attends shows and browses within a couple hundred miles, mostly in the SE.

2. I believe that most dealers don't have the time or won't spend the time building a relationship to be a mentor to a newbie. They are too busy getting new stock and preparing for the next show and traveling. Being accessible on-line is something I don't think is reality for most. I spend 8 – 10 hours a day at work on a computer and the last thing I want to do is go on the computer at night. (Yes, I'm at work now, it's my lunch time.) I think the same would be true for most dealers.

3. I think the role of on-line forums is not only to bring like-minded people together but also to build relationships with fellow members. I have met a few members at shows and truly enjoyed it. That is why I think the demise or dwindling memberships of local clubs is sad. We loose the comradeship that was there and once gone its usually gone for good.

4. I travel a lot, usually spending a few months or even a couple of years on contract at a time. I try to find a local stamp club and join. Because of the duration I usually bring stuff from home with me, be it books, albums or just a bunch of stamps I'm working on. If unlucky enough to not find a local club I try to spread the word and see if I can interest others in this hobby. But, most of the people I work with are busy raising a family and don't have either time or the resources or both.

5. I don't consider myself to be an advanced collector but, I'm getting there, still too much to learn. This being said, usually, it's the dealer who has the initiates a discussion trying to find out if he/she has anything you might be interested in. I collect U.S. revenues along with a bunch of other stuff and if I'm after revenues that day and the dealer doesn't have any, we both lose. That's when I'll ask about 1851-57 stamps or postal history in general. A knowledgeable dealer is nearly always willing to share information if he's not busy and you have a good attitude. That's when the fun begins because if it's in an area you both enjoy then both will share and learn. I don't expect a dealer to be all knowing about everything but a dealer who puts themselves up as an expert should be just that. Too many times I have seen the "expert" dealers become just used car salesmen. There are many who are truly experts and I'll sit at their table as long as my money hold out.

I think I've rambled on too long and its time for me to get back to work.

Art

I will admit that I haven't taken the time to read all of the posts in this topic, just the top ones. So please excuse me if the answer to this question is already in here someplace...I can picture what a stamp show is. That's easy. But there is evidently a great difference between a stamp "show" and a stamp "bourse". Could someone describe what exactly goes on in a bourse that makes it different than a show?


-IBFS

Definition of Bourse :




Basically an informal sale of stamps with multiple dealers.

Usually a Stamp show has exhibits , lectures and a bourse . Sometimes a bourse may exist on its own .

http://www.stampclubs.com/show/SESE...urse%204.jpg

A show has several main activity areas.
1. One of these is a dealer bourse, that is, an arrangement of dealers at tables in booths, for the purpose of conducting trade in material.
2. Another major element in a show is an area of exhibit frames for competitive, or sometimes non-competitive, display of stamp material to be judged according to established competitive standards.
3. Another aspect of a show is meeting space for recognized groups and societies present to discuss their business or offer special presentations.
4. Beyond the society meetings most shows also provide opportunities for special presentations, seminars, colloquia, and scheduled events of short duration.
5. Most shows are also host to a major auction house which holds a public auction to which show attendees are invited to visit or participate.
6. National level shows may run for 3 or more days, but with limited hours of access to the main show floor (e.g 10 a.m.-6 p.m. is common). However, it is typical that societies and groups will sponsor evening events informally, but sometimes by formal invitation only. One night of the show will be dominated by the awards banquet for the exhibition awards.

By way of contrast a bourse is essentially a marketplace, that is, an aggregation of dealers as in number 1 above who meet to trade out of their inventories with one another and with the collecting public. It is built on the model of the European open air markets. This market is the entire focus of activity at a bourse.

I defer to essayk description much more descriptive and exacting .

Hello all, I remember as a kid going with my grandmother to the stamp shows they had in Redlands and Beaumont. I remember alot of tables with older men and women talking about stamps. As a small child the details meant nothing to me.
I always looked for the tables they had with men and women that had setup some copied pages from albums, and had matching stamps to those pages on the table. You could stand there and they would help you learn how to hinge, find the stamps that matched that copied page, and explain some history about those stamps.
I guess that stuck in my mind the most in that some of the people there also spent the time with the young and inexperienced to sort of sell you a hobby with mentor-ship. Not gaining financially of course. I thru the years had been to maybe a dozen "shows" with my kids and never found those type of tables. I asked my grandmother about those people as an adult and she told me those were set up by the Rebekah's and Odd fellows clubs that her and my grandfather belonged to. Gary

It seems to me that most dealers (and other people in this hobby) just assume that if you are an adult, you've been at this for awhile and should be fairly competent at it.

I collected as a child and didn't pick the hobby back up until five years ago when my son was five years old. I considered myself a "newbie" back then. At shows, my son was the one that got all the help and mentoring from the dealers (he still does). I suppose they all assumed I knew what I was doing!

One CHICAGOPEX dealer in particular, went to great lengths explaining why this stamp was better than that stamp, etc., etc. etc., to my son. That dealer now has a customer for life. Every time we go to a show, I'm asked if "The Stamp King" is going to be there. I really appreciate what he's done. He understands that for a kid, a $2.00 purchase is a big deal. He never talks down to my son and always treats him like he's a major purchaser. There are several other dealers that my son has come to ask for by name because they treat him with respect and take him seriously.

As for the exhibits..... I would much rather look at them online in the comfort of my living room, than to have to stand on a hard floor holding my bag and purse. I must admit I have a love/hate relationship with exhibits. They are fascinating to study, but I start getting frustrated because I know I will never have enough money to do an exhibit- and I'd like to! I know there are people that say you can do them cheaply, but I don't agree. My stamp budget is about $20 a show. There's no way I could do a prize-winning exhibit for that.

So, usually when the boy and I go to a show, we go for the dealers, not the exhibits.

spanishmoss, it sounds like you are familiar with the Chicago area. I would like to offer a few words of encouragement. First let me say that your comments about the Stamp King are a wonderful testimony to a truly gentle spirit with a great heart. His name is Charles Berg, and I hope you won't mind if I pass your words along to him. He is a friend of mine, and it would bring a smile to his face to know that such things are said of him. I don't know if you're aware of it but the Stamp King is a philatelic rarity of sorts, since it is one of the very few stamps stores still in operation.

Charles has long been a major player in another annual show in Chicagoland called Compex. This is a place for you to go to see what can be done with a small budget for exhibiting. There was a time when Chicagoland had more than two dozen stamp clubs of every description. Only a small percentage of all those collectors could realistically plan to exhibit in a Nationally rated show. The Combined Philatelic Exhibition (COMPEX) was intended from the get go to be a venue for first timers at the exhibiting game, coming out of all those local clubs. The rules were made less stringent than for a national, and everyone who participated got something by way of recognition. Though the clubs have dwindled down to a few, the show goes on, with many of its original principles still intact. There is still an exhibit area at Compex and that is where you should go for the kind of inspiration that may help you design a one frame exhibit for a start.

The trick when looking at an exhibit is to look past the money, as much as possible, and focus on the creativity of arrangement and research (called treatment), and the aesthetics of the display (presentation). Start with that, look at the material you collect and ask, "how can I arrange this to make it seem as interesting to someone else as it is to me?" That's what exhibiting in a non-threatening environment comes down to, if you don't worry about the competitive aspects. Make me see what you see. With a little creative thought and a bit of effort you can do that for a story complete in 16 pages. Try it! The next Compex comes around sometime in February to May, not sure exactly when, but you have plenty of time to start something. And if the show comes along before you get an exhibit done, go to the show and shop for ideas and inspiration. Exhibiting can be a liberating creative challenge, irrespective of how much money you put into the material.

Essayk, I'm actually not familiar with Chicago at all. I just know how to get from my home in southern Wisconsin to CHICAGOPEX. I don't have the nerve to go any farther! One of these days, though, I would love to visit the Stamp King's store. We will certainly visit his booth, though, in a couple of weeks.

Thank you for the encouraging words and explanation about exhibiting. I will certainly look into COMPEX. It can't be too far from where I live because it is always mentioned in the Wisconsin Federation of Stamp Clubs' newsletter.

Will you be at CHICAGOPEX?