Washington Franklin Types

Hi all,

I just bought an album with a 491, 534, 534A and 534B, among others. Well, it has stamps in those places. I think the previous owner got a little carried away with filling holes. So now I finally need to learn the Washington Franklin types and I need some feedback. I think the stamp in the 491 space is really type III, which would be either a 455 or 492 depending on the watermark. The cancel seems to be everywhere I need to look for design features. I think I see 2 lines on the ribbons and the downward mouth.

I'd like your opinions to see if I'm on the right track. I've avoided this subject for the few years I've been collecting.



Thanks. I've learned a lot from this forum. In fact, I started doing my stamp question searches here instead of on Google.

One could only hope that you have those. three of them are quite expensive.

Yes, I would love to add any of those stamps to my collection and at first glance it was exciting to see them. Unfortunately, after looking more closely, none of them seem to have the right design characteristics. That's when I got into this whole mess of trying to ID types I - III and IV - VII. There are other somewhat valuable stamps in this album, for example a used 312, so maybe one of them is the real deal.

I finally feel like I can tell a Flat Plate from a Rotary, then these standards throw me the old "Offset curveball".

It is definitely a Type III.....look at the fold on the left side of the ribbon, and the extra line is there.

Nice catch on your part.



I've posted an image of my 491, which has a Weiss cert. It is not a very good image, but one thing you can see is that the Type II stamp is not as strong of an impression overall as the Type III stamp which IIRC, is the reason for the weakening in the lines in the toga rope and overall

Hope this helps-- good luck, Ray

That definitely helps. It's good to see a certified copy of 491. That's a beautiful example and nicely centered. I was looking at images on ebay, but it seems some of them are misidentified and it was only confusing me.

Feeling encouraged, I took a look at the 534A. Based on the left 2 I think it's a type VI. If I got that right, then it really is a 534A. I didn't see any other type VI imperfs.

And here is the stamp that was listed at 534B. Based on the DID in the toga button, this is actually type IV. #532.



Some of the differences are pretty easy to spot, others not so much. For example, if something is said to occur only on Type VII, does that mean only when considering types IV - VII? In other words, it could possibly occur on Types I - III.

Definitely a type VI and definitely a type IV....

The huge gap in the left "2" gives the type VI away every time....

Wish I could post a better image of the 491. It's not here right now, away for safe keeping.....

I love the 2c reds, and that is where I started to actually study and learn. Can't recommend more highly, the Washington Franklin book by Martin A. Armstrong. Wait until you read about the 6c coil that no one has a copy of..... :)

The 491 cert says "sound, and scissor cut on the left". I bought it on ebay, figuring it wouldn't ever be certed, for $41.....with that centering, it's the best copy I've ever seen.

Have a few other 2c'ers also.... 449, 459, 461, 519 and a 534B with Shermack's....

Ray

Good, I'm on the right track. It's getting a little easier and it's more enjoyable that I thought it would be. Seemed like too many tiny details at first.

That's a very nice (and expensive) collection of the 2 centers. I'd love to see the 459 and 534B if you have a scan. I'm sure they're tucked away with the 491. I've always had a thing for imperfs.

I probably won't find that Washington-Franklins book for the Kindle, but hopefully my library or Amazon. Thanks for the help, Ray.

the type VI could easily be a perforated stamp with the perfs sliced off.
the type IV looks imperf, the scam was in identifying it as type VII

The type VI does seem to have rough cuts on the right and esp. the left, and cleaner cuts on the top and bottom. I've read you can tell by looking at the stamp edge on, but I don't have any real life experience.

Luckily I wasn't scammed on the type VII. These and many other stamps including the 2nd Bureau Issue up to 312 weren't even listed or pictured as part of the album.

The 312 could be a reperfed 479. It has 3 fairly big margins and I don't see anything obvious. I don't have any fluid right now to check the watermark.

It doesn't seem likely, looking at this example. The only way this could be a fake is if it was a reperforated proof, either a shaved card or a rebacked India, which it does not appear to be from this scan.

The #312 shown is a #312.
No doubt about it.....and a nice example at that.

That's good to hear, it was a nice surprise.

I'd like to resume this thread with 441 - 447 from the same album.

I'm not sure if these stamps are trimmed fakes. How definitive is it to measure the entire stamp? Would most or all vert coil examples from this time period measure at least 24.5 to 25 mm?

I measured the following stamps with GIMP. To test GIMPs accuracy, I measured the stamp design. It measures 18.5 x 22 mm, so it seems to be very accurate.

447 measures 24.5 mm top to bottom.



446 is only 24.1



445 is worst at 23.8



I'd appreciate any opinions.

Ray

Ray, anything less that a measurement of 24.5mm, straight edge to straight edge, on a horizontal coil as you are showing, is probably a fake made by cutting down one or two perf'ed. edges. Even a measurement of 24.5mm isn't guaranteed to be a legimate coil. 25.0mm or larger (there are larger margins) is pretty much considered the desirable size for legit horizontal coils for W/Fs.
To confuse it even more, I've heard that there are legimate (I presume certified) coils that measure less that 24.5mm. I've a #352 on a post card that measures 23.5mm. Its never been lifted from the card and the card was purchased in an antiques shop. All that being said doesn't mean it is a legit. coil, but its does indicate it could be. Since some of the early coils were hand made, there is variances in the size. Perhaps others on the site can give some input into this too. Hope this helps you some.